Annotations for "Carvel Collins"

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Item	Time	Annotation	Layer
August 3, Evening Part One	0:00 - 5:04	Conference Introductory Remarks	Program
August 3, Evening Part One	3:24	The plan of these three nights is a fairly simple one. There will be two talks of approximately a half an hour each, each night, followed by a commentator who will discuss the two talks, and we hope further entangle the two speakers and arguments with each other. Then we hope to have sort of rebuttals and general conversation from the group on the stage, followed by questions from the audience.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part One	4:02	This evening, I would like to run through the-- right now, the three evenings, the program. The first speaker this evening will be Mr. Stanley Hyman. The second speaker, Mr. Frank O'Connor. And Mr. Anthony West will comment on their two speeches.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part One	4:19	Tomorrow night, the first speaker will be Mr. Simenon. And the second speaker will be Mr. Ellison. And Professor Frohock will comment on their two papers.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part One	4:33	On the third evening, we will have two publishers-- one publisher of hardback books, Mr. William Sloan, and another publisher of paperback books, this being one of the issues in literature in our time, Ms. Hilda Livingston. And then the group here, these authors, will have a chance to discuss things with the publisher in a more general way than perhaps they've been accustomed to.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part One	5:04	And since presumably these are publishers who are operating off the record and outside the business, I hope that there can be some genuine disagreement, which is, of course, of interest to all of us. The program this evening is to deal with the how and why of the modern novel, and perhaps, the question, more than that of the question of should certain things be going on in the modern novel. From conversation with the two first speakers, I believe that we are in for an evening of the kind of disagreement that, as I said before, is very important and interesting to all of us.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part One	5:51	The first speaker, Mr. Stanley Hyman, is an extremely well-known critic. He is a teacher of literature at Bennington College. His book, The Armed Vision, is a handbook for all those who want to know in skillful detail what many of the leading critics of our time stand for and what their good and bad points are. And Mr. Hyman's subject this evening is new trends in the contemporary novel.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part One	40:51	Thank you, Mr. Hyman. Before announcing the next speaker I have been asked just now to announce that there is an emergency call for Dr. Starr, if he is in the house, please. Our next speaker has published novels, stories, plays, and is well known to you all.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part One	41:14	He doesn't exactly have a subject this evening. He just has a speech, a talk, which is on the same general subject of the modern novel, and I imagine with a number of disagreements, which Mr. Hyman will get a chance to deal with later. Mr. Frank O'Connor.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part Two	22:43	I suggest that before going ahead with the commentary on these talks and discussion of them, everyone feel he has the right for about 40 seconds to stand up and stretch, it seems to me.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part Two	24:06	I think we'd better get on with the business of the evening.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part Two	24:35	The commentator on these speeches is himself a novelist and a critic, and needs no further introduction-- Mr. Anthony West.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part Two	57:09	Thank you, Mr. West. The program, I think, for the rest of the evening should be that first of all, we give the speakers a chance to speak to Mr. West's points. And then, people here on the panel discuss everyone-- discuss anything he wants to. And then we will have questions from the audience if there is time.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part Two	57:31	Should this evening-- the panel take up most of the time and there not be an opportunity for many questions from the audience, I think you might save them up. The whole program has a certain unity, at least of subject, and on Wednesday evening, there will perhaps be more time for questions from the audience. And some of your questions that you might want to raise this evening may be answered a little later this evening or tomorrow.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part Two	58:02	I'd like first of all to ask Mr. Hyman to use-- just let's all stay right here at the table-- to use that microphone, which I assume is alive, and speak to Mr. West's points.	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part Two	1:00:25	All right, Mr. O'Connor?	Carvel Collins
August 3, Evening Part Two	1:00:28	Mr. O'Connor, would you move the--	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part One	0:05	First of all, I wonder if the people in the back would fill up seats to the front. This makes a better operation all the way around. In the very first row, I wonder if the members of the conference or other members of ? parliament. ?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part One	0:42	A word about the microphone system, which is always a problem for everyone, has been solved very well here, I believe. That is, you're not supposed to walk to the microphone when you are making a statement from the audience. I'm told that if you merely look directly at the microphone from anywhere you are, the way they are scattered around is such that it will pick up the sound for this particular room. So instead of spending the afternoon stumbling over each other's feet, just speak from where you are at at that point.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part One	1:13	The function of these afternoon sessions is to add new material to the subject of the conference and give further opportunity to work over things that have been stated previously. We're fortunate to have today as a speaker, who will talk for approximately half an hour or so, a man who will give us new material and, I think, be dealing also with the essential subjects that were raised last night and will, I assume, be raised throughout the rest of the meeting.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part One	1:44	Professor Frohock has been a professor of French at Columbia University for some time. He is an authority on modern fiction. He's published a book about a certain group of American novels. The book's entitled, I believe-- I know the book well. I own the book. It's Novel of Violence in America. Is this correct?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part One	2:08	And he has also written a volume about Malraux, and is to speak to us today about some of the problems of literary criticism and the novel. Are our critical systems and devices suitable for fiction in its contemporary form? Professor Frohock.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	1:29	I think today we should feel that we have the luxury of having time for discussion. Usually, after speeches, there's a great desire for the audience and participants in general to talk. Yet, there isn't enough time. Today, I think we should feel secure and in having at least until about 4:15. Therefore, I think everyone should feel he can say what he wants to say.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	1:59	I should like to ask if there's any comment from any of the members of the conference. Mr. Hyman? Excuse me. If every speaker would just rise where he is, I believe that these microphones are not speaking to the audience, merely putting the proceedings on tape, and you will be picked up from wherever you are if you look at the microphone. Thank you.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	3:55	Mr. Frohock, please.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	4:29	Mr. Lytle?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	10:49	Mr. O'Connor?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	12:07	Mr. Frohock?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	12:08	Yes, please.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	15:01	Mr. Ellison, would you speak to this subject? I'm not at this moment sure what the subject is, but would you speak to it nevertheless?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	17:22	Mr. West? Do you have anything to say, got anything to say? Your hand was up a moment ago, sir. Has your question been answered, or would you like to ask it now?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	17:33	Or a new one?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	17:36	All right. Any of them. All of them.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	17:41	Would you stand up please so that the audience can hear you more clearly? Thank you.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	21:56	Mr. Hyman?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	22:28	You're in agreement.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	22:29	Mr. O'Connor?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	23:31	Mr. Humes	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	23:34	Would you stand up?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	25:57	Mr. Simenon? Will you?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	26:01	Yes, please.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	26:53	All right. Mr. INAUDIBLE ? Will you speak to any aspect of this or introduce a new aspect?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Two	29:30	Yes, yes.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	5:45	Yes, please.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	6:00	Is there anyone who can speak to this?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	6:07	Well he writes about morons. Well, he doesn't specifically aim at professors emeritus of Harvard University, obviously.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	6:20	And therefore, he may not attract their favorable attention. This is a big subject. We've been having big subject. Do you mean-- are you asking, essentially, whether or not William Faulkner has a moral imagination?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	6:50	I will say that I haven't made a living by, but I've supplemented my income by, giving a little talk around entitled-- just because of this problem-- entitled William Faulkner moralist, you see. To prove-- and any author who is a moralist-- the fact that I say is unproven-- but any author who is a moralist, we assume is not writing for morons because I think we assume that morons, at least the courts do, assume that they are neither eligible for officers candidate school nor are exempt in time of war and are not--	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	7:30	--and are not to be held totally responsible. They are frequently wards of the court or ward-- they are assigned people to take care of them as wards. No. William Faulkner, I think-- I'm naturally in a prejudiced position, here, because if I said I like him, this place would be in a category that you brought up. And I don't want to place myself there. The rest is up to you. But I think that without any doubt, whatever the Faulkner is an issue here.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	8:00	He is not the newest breed of novelist. He wrote in an earlier period. But I think one of the reasons for his present popularity, for the enormous attention that he is receiving, is that the times have changed-- as Mr. Ellison suggested and he somehow seems, to more readers, to be speaking to them. And I think one of the reasons that he has been accused of writing for morons-- though I really don't take that very seriously.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	8:30	I think he's been accused of writing for people who want to read filth. And this doesn't limit itself to morons. -- I think that William Faulkner has very-- fortunately for us at the moment, he wrote a kind of thing that wasn't extremely comprehensible at first glance to readers trained in another tradition. So that I find that the people who are his strongest supporters now are-- among his strongest supporters-- are the students who are, we hope, from whom the writers of the future will come.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	9:08	They don't want to do just what he's doing. But they feel that among the older hands who have been making a living at this for some time, here is the man who's doing closer to what they are trying to do than other writers have been doing. And I believe that his revival is close to the center of what we've been discussing earlier today. And that is the question of reality, and organization, and whether or not-- and the question of last night-- whether or not the novel is popular, and should reach a large audience, and all the rest.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	9:36	Now Dos Passos's USA was a very popular book when it came out. And this rose from the middle classes though he is not middle class. And it was read by the middle classes. And it seemed to me-- speaking to Mr O'Connor's point of last evening-- it seems to me that Dos Passos fitted in with a time period and had a great boom. To me-- and I like Dos Passos. I remember once I didn't like him-- past tense. I remember once when Big Money, the third of the trilogy, came out, I went to a bookstore in the morning, rented it-- this was in the depression, which the book was about.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	10:11	And I thought I'd just glance at it that morning and found that I had finished it before I ate again. And this last summer, I tried to look over another volume of the trilogy thinking to assign it to some students. And over a period of a week of desperate struggle, I was unable to get more than halfway through it. Now, this has been presumed. Maybe it's just a solipsistic thing. Maybe just I have changed. But I don't think so. I think the times have changed. And I think that kind of thing is not of such interest.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	10:40	Now there was a thing in one sense less organized-- if you can ever say that what we recognize as art is not organized-- but certainly much more loosely organized. It had presented no difficulties to the reader except problems of endurance, which have increased, as I say. Whereas Faulkner, writing in approximately the same period-- a little bit earlier than that third volume-- Faulkner wrote a thing like The Sound and the Fury, which immediately brings up a problem that Mr. O'Connor dealt with last night.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	11:12	That is the question of external systems and so forth. Mr. O'Connor was speaking of great deal about Joyce, and very effectively about Joyce. And though I think I-- incidentally, I think I should resume my role as moderator this evening. But in the brief time remaining, I take it this is not comment vomit. It seems to me that it's quite right now to look at Joyce with a little less awe and almost approach Mr O'Connor's position because the trouble with Joyce is that these external systems-- The Odyssey or chart of human anatomy and so forth-- are presented in what has now begun to seem to a number of readers as in a sort of niggling fashion with an ulterior purpose.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	11:53	These ulterior structures have an ulterior purpose, which is in great part to show what an extremely learned man Joyce was, it seems to me. And also, they're a part of an extreme mania that he has, as Mr. O'Connor pointed out, for association, which would lead him to absurd extremes. Now for a man to present a technique as a pioneer is a different thing from seeing his followers take it up and adapt it, fit it to a slightly later time, and also, fit it to the lack of being a pioneer.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	12:27	A pioneer seems to me to perspire and be ungraceful, whereas the follower, settling a few waves behind the first wave of pioneering, can use these things, take them more as they come, fit them in, mesh the thing together, melt it down, and not use it so obviously. And in connection with these ulterior systems, I think Sound and Fury-- since you bring up Faulkner-- is a good example. The thing has at least three elaborately worked out ulterior external systems, which no critic, to my knowledge, has ever noticed.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	13:04	And yet, readers have liked-- some readers have liked it. And I think a growing number have liked it. Many of the students and would-be, hopeful writers that we speak of-- that wave of the future, if that phrase isn't hasn't a bad connotation. These people have got a lot of out of The Sound and the Fury. And they're what we would have to accept as so-called good writers-- good readers, I mean-- adequate readers.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	13:30	They're not people who are just overjoyed solely with Forever Amber. And they are able to go away from a novel like The Sound and the Fury feeling somewhat good, feeling they've got some their money's worth in part-- a good many of them are. Now, Mr. O'Connor has asked that authors be less self conscious and less intellectual. Joyce seems to him overly intellectual. And this would seem-- he seems so to me.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	13:54	But, at the same time, Mr. O'Connor asks that the reader be extremely intellectual, and that if the novel has in it systems and things which are not subject to the reader's immediate conscious and intellectual examination, that the novel is a failure. And I'm of the opinion that there's a middle ground here where the author shouldn't be so self-conscious and intellectual and planned and smelling of the lamp as Joyce, a lamp with a reflector to show how much he's a poor figure, but a lamp which he wants to smell up to show he's spent the time near it. The author can do a little less of that.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	14:34	And I think though the reader these days is likely to be a little intellectual, after all, he's been able to read James's prefaces and other things, as Mr. Frohock has pointed out, still, I think it's possible for a reader, whom we might call a good reader, one we accept as who knows any more than Arnold's suggestion that the best people in literary matters-- if this reader goes away from a novel like The Sound and the Fury feeling good, feeling that something's come from this, if he doesn't know all the intellectual systems on which it's organized, who cares?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	15:04	The novel, for example, has several-- involves four days. These are the days of Holy Week. It has Maundy Thursday and Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	15:16	And throughout these-- the days-- the events assigned to these days, the symbolic and traditional operations of those days recur but so melted into the realism that Mr. O'Connor asks for that the readers have not been aware that on the Thursday, the boy does a lot of washing of his hands and so forth, though feet is done in the Bible. This is the way the author changes it. And there's harrowing of Hell and other things that go through this thing. But they're not sticking their heads up too far.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	15:44	And then the title, following Joyce-- this, I believe, is an author who went to school with Joyce. And as Walt Whitman said something about the breadth of my students' shoulders only tests, I think, the breadth of my own shoulders, Faulkner, I think, has maybe taken Joyce's thing-- this is blasphemy to say-- and maybe done it better. The other pattern is as with Joyce, who took the-- who gave a title to his book to steer the reader to The Odyssey, so Faulkner takes a title from the fifth act of Macbeth, famous speech by Macbeth, and then organizes the book around this speech so that one of the monologues deals a great deal with "out, out brief candle."	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	16:24	The second monologue involves a great deal of life being a walking shadow. Quentin Compson, before he found himself up somewhere near the Brighton abattoir here in Charles River, walks his shadow around a great deal. And in the third monologue, the poor player struts and frets upon the stage. And in the end, where the peak of sound with Jason, or with the Idiot, and the fury with Jason, where they reach their peak, the novel ends with showing that it signifies nothing for these people, who fit into the novel as one of the big-- a novel that deals with one of the big subjects of our time, which is love or the lack of love in its broadest sense. And the novel has made very clear throughout that these children are being-- are suffering, or as the novel says two times, "poisoned" by the lack of affection from the parents, lack of support and lift from the hypochondriac mother and the cynical and alcoholic father.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	17:25	And this novel is a moralistic novel saying that that ain't right. And one of the ways it shows this is that the three interior monologues are also organized, as Joyce organized parts around the Chart of Human Anatomy. In this, they're organized around the Chart of Human Personality but as laid out by Freud so that the idiot's speech, so-called, the one assigned to the idiot, draws very carefully on Freud's definition of the id.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	17:51	The second monologue is very carefully based on Freud's definition as available to Faulkner in translation. And he did read a lot of Freud then, and he has this kind of mind. Based on the ego, Jason, the one who wants to repress all pleasure, who's the only one who cares what the community thinks, who in their three brothers' concentration on their sister is the one who hates her and who is against all voluptuousness, whether it leads to information or not.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	18:23	This-- Jason is strictly based on the superego. And such details as the idiot's trying to break out of the fence through the gate, and as a result, being brought in and by Jason being castrated, this is how the textbook, too, that famous portal that Freud set up in his spatial figure when he was moving from his hydraulic images to the geographical ones, this is the kind of episode which means something on the realistic level. Anybody with an idiot in the family, 33 years old with a mind of a 3-year-old, is going to be interested, as Jason is, in keeping him back of the house, inside the fence, not out presumably, or probably not actually molesting schoolgirls.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	19:05	But still, the thing has a life at another level. And I see no real harm in this. If the novel is able to live since 1929 with all kinds of people treading over it and dealing with it in every way, and these systems are so completely buried that all they've done is guide the author maybe and guide the reader perhaps subtly, or at least give him a feeling there's some unity here, I see no objection in doing this because the author has in two ways not paraded this learning. He has not made it stick out in the novel to such an extent as Joyce did. And he has not slyly said to an equivalent of Mr. Gilbert, yes, if you look farther, you'll see really something here.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	19:49	The analogy here, I think, is possibly that between the horse and horseman. The-- though I don't want the reader to be in every way equated to the horse because though readers are sharply different from authors, there are some readers who can approach being-- approach some authors. But I think that just as a horse not knowing where he and the horseman are going, as anyone who rides at all knows, is a little more happy, subtle things are conveyed by the hands, knees, and seat of the pants. And the horse somehow senses that the author, the horseman, is-- he'll change in a minute at the next jump.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	20:31	The horseman is aware of where he's going and knows the technique for getting the horse to go there. And the horse has a happier day. He had-- the ride he enjoys more.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	20:43	And I think that if an author, in dealing with this rapid flux that passes and giving it some kind of shape, has something that makes him-- I hope he has an internal smile, not a kind of leer or sneer. But if he's happily smiling to himself that he's got a gimmick now that will work, and if he doesn't intrude it too much, I think art works in subtle ways and that somehow, some readers, and apparently in growing numbers, have begun to sense that maybe something's going on here. Now if-- I do not believe that they buy this book and read it so that they can end up with a kind of mystery of the sort of the lady or the tiger. So when they get through, they say, well, what happened in this book?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	21:25	They may not know all these things happened. And because I say they happened doesn't prove they do. They may not happen there at all.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	21:31	But I do think that because the author has had this kind of plan and has been able to use it and adapt it, as Mr. Ellison said last night in the roundtable, taking these new techniques and the novels looking backward but not trying to move there, it seems to me that here is a possible place where some of this adaptation has been made.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	21:51	And if the reader does not know when he gets through everything that has happened, that's all right. But on the other hand, to return to your professor emeritus of Harvard, it is quite true that if the reader approaches this expecting a straight-out naturalistic with a capital N chronological order of the kind that Faulkner has in As I Lay Dying, which for many years was his most admired book because the woman died. The family tried to take her to a burying ground, and in the end they got there.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	22:22	This novel had a crystal, linear clarity, if there's such a thing, which made many readers say, Faulkner can't write a novel, but he wrote one here. Well, Faulkner's-- measured by those devices, these other novels are certainly chaotic. It doesn't even run Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. But it has another kind of order.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	22:43	To take another example, Malcolm Cowley, who's in great part responsible for much of Faulkner's-- well, for part of Faulkner's boom in this country, or at least making the books available through the Viking Portable, has felt that Faulkner so abandoned the naturalistic novel that he needed to be rewritten. The canute thing operated with Mr. Cowley. So Mr. Cowley and the Viking Portable Faulkner has written the only good Faulkner novel.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	23:12	It has a chronological order. We start with Indians. We get early settlers. These are snippets from various places. And we come up to the very present.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	23:20	Now this has a beauty all its own, which has been imposed by Mr. Cowley. On the assumption that William Faulkner in his individual works had no aesthetic plan whatever, as in The Sound and the Fury, and that the important thing is he's dealt with one county to a considerable extent, but that it's so hard for the readers to find this out that now in this one volume they can do it. And so the important thing is the history of the county, which you can get from some-- also from some volumes prepared by the WPA.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	23:52	Mr. Cowley's also said that William Faulkner never wrote a unified novel. In other words, he writes for morons. And he cites the-- as Light in August, in which the two main protagonists, the main woman and the main man, never meet.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	24:07	Now this is a Procrustean bed that I don't propose to make the novel take for its lodging this night or any other. The novel has a theme which requires that these two characters never meet, a theme that has to do with time. One of the characters is embedded in the past. One is morbidly fixed on the future.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	24:26	And-- no, excuse me. The one doesn't meet. There are three characters here. The man we just spoke of frozen in the past, and the woman I just spoke of, the major one, eternally in the present, using figures from Keats' Ode on a Grecian Urn.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	24:40	This is an author who may write for morons. But he's read the poems which are popular with professors emeritus in general. And he knows them rather well.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	24:52	And the Ode on a Grecian Urn sets up this girl as running through eternal present. And then another woman, who is killed by the man, is frozen in the future. Now this-- and to mention strictly parenthetically a thing that Mr. Frohock referred to in The Inferno, where some characters there have their heads turned backward, it's not really in connection. But to give you an idea of how really moronic this author is and how many schemes he uses which are not intellectually available to the reader without-- I've been reading them over and over again for money, you see? This is different.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	25:28	In this novel, when the man who is embedded in the past kills the woman who is fixed on the future, he cuts her throat in a scene which rather horrified some people. And when her body is carried out of this building, which is burning naturally, and this openly-- blanket in which it's been brought out is open in the yard, we see that her head is turned backward on the body. And there are some readers of a squeamish sort who asked whether or not this twist was necessary.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	26:00	And the point is that the people in The Inferno passage that Mr. Frohock spoke of were Cassandra, Tiresias, and others, whose sin was they looked too far in the future. So this woman who looked too far in the future, when her throat is cut and she's brought out, her head is turned backward on her body. Now this is maybe morbidly the author having games with himself.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	26:27	There is an element in all of this of the author's being the kind of person who could satisfactorily own a stolen Mona Lisa, in which he knows that everyone is looking for it. Those so-and-sos out there, and I'm the man who knows where it is. He can't tell his wife. He can't tell anybody else. But he's-- he knows it, and this is fine.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	26:43	There is this element, and it's a big risk. But when these external systems, this metaphor, so that this woman doesn't have a choice as to which way her body will lie as Bloom, as Mr. O'Connor pointed out last night, doesn't have a choice as to whether he'll go upstairs or out in the yard, this woman doesn't have the choice in the novel of whether her head will, when murdered, will be forward or aft. A metaphor requires that it be turned. But I don't mind that if the author doesn't force me to feel terribly unhappy if I don't get the point.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	27:16	But as soon as the theme of time appears, thousands of these details fit in. And I don't favor crossword puzzles. I never worked one in my life, even on a-- in a day coach. And I don't want to work them here.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	27:27	But I think that somehow the author-- maybe realism of an extraordinarily flat variety has come to its end for the moment. And I think for an author to deal with these things in a way which maybe has a new meaning, I mean, for him to deal in this way may have a new meaning and may convey it to some readers. But by the all standards set up of an earlier time, you're quite right. Your professor's quite right. He writes for morons.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Three	28:09	That was not a moderate-- moderator's speech. I'm sorry. If there are other questions for any of the-- Mr. Frohock or any members of the panel-- yes, please.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Four	2:07	Yes?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Four	2:27	Mr. Lytle?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Four	2:28	Well, I didn't get that. Will you repeat this question? Would you stand please? It's very hard to hear you without standing.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Four	2:47	Well, I will-- go ahead Mr. Ellison. Yes.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Afternoon Part Four	4:48	I think that the proper thing to do is stop now and bring up these questions again at the meeting tomorrow. Mr. Campbell, are there any announcements that I have forgotten to make at the moment?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	0:05	We had expected that one of the speakers last night would be Miss Katherine Anne Porter. She, however, has been ill. We have been expecting day-by-day, as have she and her physician, that she would be well enough to come right up until this afternoon when an emissary from the conference called at her request and prepared to help her get started from New York-- from Washington here. But she-- though she was willing to come and have the show go on, in true tradition of the theater, our agent there thought that was too much of a hardship for her, that she still with a fever should not be subjected to the trip.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	0:56	The program tomorrow night will continue as announced last night. One of the speakers will be Miss Hilda Livingston, who represents the New American Library which publishes successfully large numbers of paperback books. The other speaker will be Mr. William Sloan, editorial vice-president of Funk & Wagnalls, who has had great experience in the publication of I don't know what column, but non-paperback books.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	1:29	This will be followed by, I trust, a rousing panel discussion by all the members of the panel, this being a chance for authors to argue over some of the matters that the publishers will bring up. One of the themes I know in advance from talking to the speakers will be the problem of just what does money have to do with what the contemporary novel is? And this, of course, has always been a problem and is one now, and has many ramifications at the moment.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	1:59	And the editorial policy, whether or not it's free-- as free to choose and follow various art forms as it used to be-- will be the subject at that point. Tonight, the two talks are, again, by authors-- novelists-- as last evening, and the subjects we will deal with later.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	2:24	I want to take the time of the conference this evening for about five or six minutes to summarize what went on last evening, because the panel discussion after the two speeches and after the commentary by Professor Frohock on the two speeches will probably include some of the matters brought up last night and not fully dealt with. Mr. Hyman, speaking last evening on some trends in the novel, pointed out three unattractive trends.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	2:54	First, what he calls self-parody, finding certain writers-- Hemingway, Faulkner, and others-- writing now in their what he presented as their later days writing rehashes of earlier works and doing an inferior job. The second unattractive trend he noticed was what he called the disguises of love, taking the title from a novel by Robie Macaulay, in which he dealt with the problem of heterosexual-- homosexual love being presented as heterosexual love. The third trend which he found unattractive was what he called pseudo fictions, the kind of thing the recent novel-- essentially, The Life of Scott Fitzgerald and Mr. Hershey's The Wall and such works of that sort.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	3:38	Among the hopeful trends Mr. Hyman noted was a tendency for fiction to begin to merge naturalism with myth and ritual, and the second thing that he felt was an attractive trend and cause for hope was more concentration on the experience of the individual as actor, not just as spectator, and as a real participant in things. And third-- among the third attractive trend that he sees is more interest in form-- more effective interest in form-- and coupled with this, what he called "moral imagination."	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	4:20	In commenting on Mr. Hyman's speech, Mr. West had a great many things to say, and I will only touch on these things. And this is my impression of his response to Mr. Hyman's paper. When it came to the matter of the unattractive trend number one-- self-parody-- Mr. West's point was that this is not new, that this has happened with many novelists, and he cited an example of Conrad writing in The Rover work inferior to his earlier work, and in one sense, one might say a parody of it.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	4:52	In dealing with the second unattractive trend Mr. Hyman noted, the so-called disguises of love, Mr. Hyman suggested that it might not-- Mr. West, I'm sorry-- suggests that it might not be a total loss to have novels dealing with homosexuality, especially if converted in the fiction to seem to be heterosexual love, because there may be a different feeling now from that in the 19th century on the individual part. Not about sex and sexual perversion, but the feeling of entrapment in general, and that the homosexual may feel this lack of freedom and this box he is in, and that this may be a device for appealing to a larger audience using this aberration as a symbol of a larger thing that is more widespread in the population and of more interest to readers in general.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	5:43	As for pseudo fictions-- real events dressed up, real episodes, real series of events dressed up as novels-- Mr. West's point again, I think, was that we have had these for some time and perhaps they will always be with us. He castigated Mr. Hyman somewhat for the statement about myth and ritual, when Mr. Hyman turned to his hopeful trends. I take it-- and this is a great risk of putting words in a speaker's mouth in these rather abrupt summaries-- but Mr. West's point seemed to be that it was very hard to develop a myth in a society as confused as ours without a central core out of which myths grew in the past. And he didn't see this-- I believe he did not see this as such a hopeful trend.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	6:34	Mr. O'Connor's speech in general suggested that much that we think of as contemporary in contemporary fiction is not pleasant to Mr. O'Connor. He felt, first of all, that much of modern fiction is too subjective. And he said that from the time of Proust to the present, things have been too subjective in fiction too often, and that Proust, following Bergson's theories, had not examined reality sufficiently. And that, in connection with this subjectivity, there was too much Freud and Jung in modern writers, making them often rather mechanically following systems that they didn't understand and which may have been Mr. O'Connor's opinion false in the first place.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	7:26	He went on to say that there's too much in modern fiction of elaborate metaphors, so that a character, such as Bloom and Joyce's Ulysses, is not free to act as a human being would, but he has no choices. He must follow out his metaphorical function as one of simultaneously a character in early 20th century Dublin, and in Homer's Odyssey. Mr. O'Connor felt that it is time to return to reality in fiction, and he cited the 19th century as a point when this had reached its peak in the novel.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	8:04	Mr. Weston, commenting on this speech, said that first, among other things, that he didn't feel that Proust was too subjective. That Proust did deal with reality, and dealt with it effectively. Mr. West doesn't seem to disagree with Mr. O'Connor about the excessive use of metaphor in fiction. Mr. O'Connor had objected to Kafka, and I take it Mr. West shares in this objection, but I don't think he wanted to cut out these elaborate metaphors-- the biggest example being Joyce, for example-- as much as Mr. O'Connor did.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	8:40	And I don't think that Mr. West felt last evening that the novel could return very readily to the 19th century. That perhaps it had to go on, for better or for worse. The panel in general last evening discussed the questions of what is reality, and this question remains unsettled.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	9:02	Though-- and there was some suggestion that the new techniques were here. We're kind of stuck with it. Why not make out the best one can and try to always be doing better, but not necessarily be moving backward? Now, to turn to this evening-- which I'm very glad to do-- our first speaker will-- I'm glad to stop summary and let the panel, the members of the conference, do what they have been doing and should be doing-- speaking for themselves.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	9:37	Our first speaker is, in the opinion of many critics, the outstanding novelist writing in French today, and an outstanding novelist of the contemporary world. His works are among the leading literary models for a large number of the most promising young writers. He meets Mr. O'Connor's requirement-- which I forgot to mention a moment ago-- that the novel should reach a large popular audience.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	10:07	Mr. Simenon is able to do this, his works being translated into a score of languages and being translated also into scores of movies, and reaching a large public audience in all sorts of ways. But simultaneously, his novels have attracted the attention of the most sophisticated readers and critics who regard him as an extraordinarily important figure in contemporary fiction.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part One	10:35	The title of Mr. Simenon's speech is The Era of the Novel?, with a question mark. This is his first formal speech in the United States-- though he has spoken in small groups before-- and it is our great privilege to welcome him here this evening.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Two	3:07	That was Georges Simenon, the first speaker at the second session of the Harvard 1953 Summer School Conference on the Contemporary Novel.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Two	3:28	Our next speaker is Mr. Ellison the author of a novel entitled The invisible Man. This novel as you noticed last evening and as the members of the conference noticed in the session this afternoon was continually referred to by the other speakers as a model of some sort. No one made any derogatory remarks, and everyone seemed to make a great many very favorable remarks about this novel.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Two	3:57	Mr. Ellison, with this novel, won the National Book Award. He's also won not only favorable comments from speakers of last evening and this afternoon but very wide favorable comment from reviewers and critics in general.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Two	4:15	Mr Ellison, in addition to being a novelist, is a writer of shorter fiction, of articles and of criticism. It is a pleasure to introduce him this evening. His subject is Certain Neglected Aspects of the American Novel.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	0:06	We're going to have a brief commentary on these two papers, and then there will be questions and discussion, part of the people on the stage and questions from the audience following that.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	0:21	The commentator this evening who will speak for 10, or 12, or 15 minutes on these two papers is Professor Frohock, who has for a long time been professor at Columbia University. And he is now, as of this fall, chairman of the Department of Romance Languages at Wesleyan college. He is an authority on contemporary fiction. He's published a book on some aspects of contemporary American novels. And he has published a book on Malraux. Professor Frohock.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	12:23	Are there any comments from the members of the panel up here? Anyone who has anything to say objecting to or supporting anything that's been said? Mr. Ellison, would you have anything to say to Mr. Frohock's comments?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	14:34	Thank you. Mr. Simenon, would you--	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	14:38	Would you pull that towards you?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	15:21	Mr. Hyman, would you speak to this human condition?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	15:42	Mr. O'Connor?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	17:20	Mr. West?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	18:28	I don't know, but I'll say Does anyone up on the stage want to speak about this?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	22:16	Mr. O'Connor?	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	22:28	Mr. West, would you-- all right. Fine. Are there any questions from the audience to be addressed to the speakers or anyone on the panel? If you'll raise your hands rather higher than last evening, it's easier for the men with the microphones to see them. Please, would you wait until-- speak into the microphone.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	25:54	Is there a question over in this part of the audience? Here is one up forward.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	27:12	Mr. Ellison, this question was also addressed to you.	Carvel Collins
August 4, Evening Part Three	29:20	Thank you, Mr. Ellison. This subject of publication and who's reading novels and who isn't is in great part the subject of tomorrow evening. And I want now to resist the temptation to ask Mr. Sloan to speak of it now, and we'll call this a fortunate transition to tomorrow's evening and adjourn at this point.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part One	0:01	Today we have a talk again to start the discussion. The speaker today has very kindly cooperated with a suggestion from the administrative staff and from myself that, because the session so far has been so extremely mannerly in the way that I take questions yesterday, please, even Mr. Trilling, we thought it was time here at the end, so that any fights that started wouldn't last too long, well, for us to urge someone to take off the gloves or abandon at least the Marquess of Queensbury rules.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part One	0:46	Today our speaker is Mr. Holthusen, who is a poet and critic from Germany who is a member of the international seminar this summer. And he is going to talk to the general subject that we have been dealing with in the conference. Mr. Holthusen Thank you.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part One	26:58	Mr. O'Connor.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	23:30	The-- I don't know whether it was just through lapse or through desire to communicate more fully that later-- when she says this later in the novel, she spells it differently. Spells it conventionally. This may be only a problem in connection with literature being aristocratic. Mr. O'Connor, would you speak to Mr. Lytle's point, briefly or at length, that literature should be aristocratic? Because it's not my understanding, it's just my guess, that you don't think it should be or is.	Carver Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	1:06	Mr. Holthusen, would you speak to Mr. O'Connor's--	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	3:19	Mr. West, do you have any comment on this subject?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	6:32	Any other members of the panel who want to speak to this subject? Mr. Simenon, will you say anything?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	6:39	Mr. Ellison? Mr. Frohock?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	6:44	Mr. Lytle, please.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	6:47	Yes. Pretty please.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	16:44	Mr. Ellison?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	22:29	I'm reminded of a class which read Light in August by Faulkner and rather liked it. But finally, when they were asked-- it was not my class. They were asked what can we-- what bothers you about this, if anything? This was a class in New York City and all of them city students. They said, well, there's only one thing that bothers us. That's on the first page. It's an extremely hot day-- extremely hot day. And this girl, barefooted and very poor, is-- and pregnant is-- and friendless in a way, except that everyone befriends her, is walking along the road in this steaming Mississippi sun and she keeps talking about furs.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	23:13	And the teacher didn't understand what this was and looked at the text. And the girl keeps saying as she trudges along through this dust-- she keeps almost morbidly repeating it's a fur piece.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	24:06	Or would you like to define the term?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	31:25	Mr. Frohock?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Two	31:28	Anyone? Any questions from the-- yes, Mr. Simenon.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	2:13	Mr. Lytle, will you speak to Mr. INAUDIBLE?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	5:07	This merely demonstrates--	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	5:17	This demonstrates how Thoreau was able to write Walden. Because at his place he was only searching for a hound, a gray horse, and a turtle dove. So he had none of these things to fend for, leaving him time to write. Well, are there other questions from the audience? Anyone? Yes, please.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	6:09	INAUDIBLE Mr. Simenon You're an admirer of Mr. Thurber and is Mr. Thurber a representative of the comic spirit in some way?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	6:57	Mr. Thurber, whom you admire-- is he a comic writer and is--	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	7:03	It's not--	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	7:11	But there's an inward eye. He's often speaking of himself, isn't he?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	7:16	And one is even psychological aberration-- not always cruel to himself. He is in a way defending himself, isn't he INAUDIBLE?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	7:25	He's defending himself from cruelty.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	7:29	And he thought maybe there's a big opening here for the comic now.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	7:52	Mr. West, please.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	9:42	And this connection I think has been overlooked in this discussion-- the possibility that one of the ways to read Kafka's book is not whether-- I'm not discussing whether or not it's an allegory or a novel. But one way to read it may be as extremely hilarious in just this situation that you speak of, the man and his particular small country driven to an extreme. This is one form of therapy which the reader might be able to share in. Mr. Ellison?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	10:49	He's hilarious, and Quentin has a certain humor about himself--	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	12:33	In this, Faulkner represents the return to the 19th century that has been asked for. And at that time, decaying corpses in the period of Mark Twain were the very peak of humor, whereas our contemporary jokes about homosexual-- homosexuality would have horrified Twain. Lots of things are fashioned in Faulkner in this regard, maybe attempting to turn back the clock, which is one of the things that the conference has suggested the modern novelists might do. Mr. Holthusen, would you speak on any of these subjects?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	16:14	Mr. O'Connor?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	19:49	As for being a funny book, no, this is the kind of comedy which does grow out for me-- it seems to me, as Mr. West says, out of being at the end of the string and this is the thing that is left. This is a comedy of strength and of the kind of laughter that I remember, and of smiling that I remember, having the first experience of when having been sent away from the house because of the approaching death of one of my grandparents, and being asked for a number of reasons to sleep at a relative's house. And coming back in the morning to have been told when I was wakened that the grandparent had died.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	20:26	And I come back to find my father and mother who were-- had normal affection but were products of the 19th century-- find my mother sitting on my father's lap. And some other people there, and they're having a rather smiling time. Rather-- they were not at the end of despair. But this mixture of the two, the idea that to a child of-- I've forgotten what tender years-- that the time of death it wasn't entirely long-faced, or that one of the ways to avoid the long face or deal with the causes of long faces was have a short face, or whatever laughing is.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	21:01	It seems to me that The Trial does this. And then The Castle, when the man lay-- when the bureau or big secretary furniture is laid down and they're jumping up and down to get the papers into the thing-- it's only a tiny episode of thousands. This seems to me comic on the way to the dealing with the monstrous situation of being arrested under three different governments by same policeman. And-- and none of these books is funny.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	21:33	Mr. Hill?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Three	23:18	Mr. Sloane	Carvel Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Four	2:26	Before we close this session, I like to note that I seemed to-- previously to note an objection in part to Mr. Simenon and Mr. Holthusen when Mr. Sloanee said that if the novel is closed and put aside by the reader, that the novel does not become art.	Carver Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Four	3:57	Bill?	Carver Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Four	4:37	If this gesture continues--	Carver Collins
August 5, Afternoon Part Four	5:11	Well, it's rather late, and 8:00 the panel-- people on the panel I think have found is closer to this hour than it had seemed earlier. So I think we better adjourn today. Meet again at 8:00 tonight in Sander's Theatre.	Carver Collins
August 5, Evening Part One	0:02	Tonight we are, as far as the audience is concerned, few and very select, and we might have a very good discussion this evening of the problem of the novel as the publisher and publishing and economics make a difference to it.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part One	0:24	This evening, we will have two talks by publishers followed by a discussion by the members of the panel, which I think will be a very free one since by two afternoon sessions and two evening sessions, the members of the panel have come to know each other's opinions, powers, and prejudices very well.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part One	0:51	In general, despite the length of that discussion, since we have no commentator this evening, I think we'll perhaps have a considerably earlier evening than last evening.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part One	1:04	Our first speaker tonight, whose title is Paperback Books and the Writer, is the assistant to the president of New American Library, which is responsible for a large portion of the books of all types and qualities which you see in markets ranging from the bookstores and drugstore to the Stop and Shop. Ms. Hilda Livingston.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part One	27:37	Thank you, Ms. Livingston. Our next speaker has, as his subject, The Editor and The Author. He is the Editorial Vice President of Funk and Wagnalls, Mr. William Sloane.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part One	29:05	Bill, this is a very bad hall. It's a fine hall except acoustically, and I think you'll speak a little louder. We've had trouble with this.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part One	29:14	You don't need to overdo it.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part One	54:23	I think now we can have a--	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	0:02	I think now we can have a roundtable discussion of these points as presented by two representatives of the publishing world. Would Mr. Lytle, since his name has been mentioned, would he like to speak? Mr. Stone, would you pass the microphone down?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	3:23	Is there any other member of the panel who will speak to either of these speeches? Mr, O'Connor? Thank you.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	10:41	Mr. O'Connor.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	10:49	Before asking Miss Livingston to speak about this, one thing troubles me. In the first evening, you made a very good and very proper plea for the novel to become more popular, be more widespread, not be just the possession of a small group. Yet when a novel sells, what was the figure, 6 million copies in a nation of over 150 million, is I don't want to misinterpret you.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	11:18	But your present statement seems to me to suggest that this has become too popular. What is the issue here? Something between the Monday night and now, there is a difference which you can resolve. And I would like to have you do it for me only, if not for anyone else.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	13:24	Miss Livingston, please.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	18:00	Mr. O'Connor?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	18:03	Mr. Frohock? Mr. Sloane? Mr. Frohock, please?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	29:34	Thank you, Bill. Mr. Simenon, you have had some experience with publishers. Would you speak to this?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	33:23	Thank you very much. Mr. Ellison, have you any thoughts on this subject?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	35:53	Thank you. Are there questions from the audience? Question right here in the third row.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	37:09	Mr. Sloane, would you, as a publisher, speak to this?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	40:21	Mr. Simenon.	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	41:19	Mr. Frohock, will you speak on this subject?	Carvel Collins
August 5, Evening Part Two	41:53	Is there one more question from the audience over in this side? If not, I should like to thank the members of the conference and the audience and adjourn.	Carvel Collins