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[Start of Recording]

Lisa Biow: Within the last year two years. I don't know exactly where it's found, maybe it was two and a half. I'm not sure. We'd have to look at maybe the transits. I mean, the exact-- I mean the memories, to look back to actually where the [unintelligible 00:00:14] but [unintelligible 00:00:15] and it probably would've gone back and forth in turns, because Saturn always goes back and forth, but Saturn, in terms of being a planet-- the 10th house is Saturn's natural house anyway.
When Saturn transitioned midheaven, it's a really big deal and has a lot to do with either you get serious about your work then, or you lose it. It's like your big opportunity to get it together, in terms of being real disciplined about your work.
Depending on what's been going on with Saturn and you, and how much you've gotten your work together. It's like if you've been doing your work real steadily before that point, it's a time of starting to reap the rewards of it. Usually, what it is, more often, is they're starting to get it really seriously together and starting to get really disciplined about your work in a way that will end up being very-- What is the word? "Rewarding" later on, like you're sowing the seeds, and stuff, that you will reap later.
It's a time of really starting to get that together and really just building up your structure [inaudible 00:01:30] It's a big deal transit.

Saturn: Boundaries and discipline

Gloria Anzaldúa: I don't know when it happened. I think it keeps happening, but--
LB: Well, it's still in your 10th house, for the next-- Let's see where it is exactly. Actually, no, it's just going out of your 1st house now. It's going into your 11th house, which will be interesting too. It's almost conjunctional [inaudible 00:02:02], which will be an interesting time in terms of writing also. It's conceivable that you might have a difficult time with writing. You might have a difficult time-- In terms of the writing, it won't come easy to you. You'll have a lot of discipline from it, but it won't come easy to you.
GA: Sometimes, it's not easy at all.
LB: Next month, and the next one. Saturn will go over your Mercury, which may be a hard time getting-- It's like the thoughts won't flow really easily. On the other hand, your discipline will be real good and you'll learn a lot, but you may go through like a few days then when it's-- or even a week or so. It's not a very long transit when [inaudible 00:02:56] back and forth. [inaudible 00:03:05]
I think there's an [inaudible 00:03:20] here [inaudible 00:03:22] or something. I don't know. Maybe that's for the year, it just happens.

GA: What, Saturn?
LB: No, that's [unintelligible 00:03:28] That's [inaudible 00:03:33] right. I think the October is the one when you can make the [inaudible 00:03:38] It's not going to quite make it that far because it's going to go forward the rest of [inaudible 00:04:00] It's like 3 degrees short of your Mercury right now. Maybe you're probably feeling it a little bit, but it's going to go backwards if you move forward. It's goes backwards, all the way to 15 degrees [inaudible 00:04:16]
GA: So that's going to be an interesting time?
LB: Yes. It'll be. What I imagine what would happen when the transit actually occurs, which will be in October, will be that it'll be a time when it'll be real- The inspiration won't come easy. It'll probably-- Actually, it'd be a great time to do work that depends less on inspiration and depends more on hard work. The kind of intellectual, like be it editing stuff or retyping stuff to send out somewhere or organizing your notes on something where there-- or gathering information for something, or the kind of stuff that's much more of the discipline, nitty-gritty kind of stuff. It'll be a real good time for that and not such a great time for flashes of insight.
GA: Sí. This is in October?
LB: Yes, in October. Probably [inaudible 00:05:26]
GA: It's not going to last long, is it?
LB: You'll feel it for a couple of weeks, probably. Anyways, if you want time to plan when you should do that kind of work, just do it at the end of October. [unintelligible 00:05:39] Uranus is in [inaudible 00:05:41] Uranus is in your 12th house right now, which is probably-- A lot of stuff is erupting in your subconscious that you can't get a handle on.
GA: Exactly, exactly.
LB: Little explosions are going on, you know something is happening, but you don't know what it is.
GA: I can't figure out what it is.
LB: In that sense, it'll probably be a relief when it goes into your 1st house, even though it may shake up your self-image a little bit. You'll, at least, be able to put your hands on it.

GA: When will it go into my 1st house?
LB: It's next year. It's until next year. It's not-- Anything that's going on in the 12th house, especially when it's near the cusp, it's a lot. That's what I was saying. It feels like being premenstrual, sort of. You can almost figure out what's-- it's like almost there. Stuff is rumbling around in the background. It's imminent, this feeling of imminence and of something that is happening and you don't have very much control over and you can't really quite figure out.
It could be good in terms of writing and could be real interesting to just maybe to try and actually focus on using imagery or relying more on imagery that comes from a real subconscious source for a while and playing around with that because there's a lot of stuff going on on that level, at the moment, and a lot of flashes.
GA: Sí.
LB: It would be nice to do dream work kind of things and just complete free writing kinds of things, and it'd probably be a really interesting time to try that. In terms of how to deal with it. Anything that has to do with the 12th house, the only way to deal with it is to let go, to be able to let go and let it be. Pay attention, but let it be.
GA: Si. That's so hard for me to do.
LB: Yes. The 12th house is a hard house. This just has your sun in the 12th house. That is a really difficult place for [inaudible 00:08:07].
GA: Oh, so is Cherrie's and Randy's. Both of them.
LB: It's hard.
GA: Plus they have Venus. What else do they have…? [unintelligible]
LB: It's interesting. It makes for a potential for a tremendous amount of compassion, but it's not easy in terms of figuring out what you want to be doing and how to do it.
GA: Saturn, Venus, and Neptune are in the 12th house?
LB: [unintelligible]
GA: [laughter] Sí.

LB: [unintelligible] Some time next year [chuckles] It's going to square your natal Neptune, which means-- and then it’s gonna square your sun.
GA: What's going to square? Uranus?
LB: Neptune.
GA: Neptune.
LB: Which is now in the first half. That's the one that we're having a hard time figuring out, what's going on with you, how you want to relate to other people and feeling like other people's images of you are somewhat distorted, at the moment, anyway, or you're not putting-- There's some gap between how you see yourself in the world and how other people are seeing you. All that stuff.
Anyway, Neptune is going to square your natal Neptune, which just-- It means some-- Anytime there's like a square between a planet, at the moment, and your natal position. It's-- there's some sort of either a crisis or some realization or something, some big change goes on in terms of that planet. I mean, there's a real chance to get a much clearer handle on that planet [inaudible 00:10:37]. [unintelligible 00:10:39] I'll be talking for psychic things maybe next year, some sort of [crosstalk] a little crossroads.
GA: Next year around this time, you think? You don't know?
LB: I don't know because it keeps going backwards and forwards, so there's no way to really figure. It only change- it goes-- It's at 25 now. It's going be on like 27 at the end of the year. Yours is 29, so [inaudible 00:11:05]
GA: [chuckles] Okay.

LB: [inaudible 00:11:09] at 27 degrees heading for [inaudible 00:11:11] A lot of the 10th house transits, though. That's more transformational on the 10th house. It's trans-formula [inaudible 00:11:28]. It's a long transit. Pluto takes like a minimum of 18 years to get through a house, so it's been there for a while. Wait a second. Hold it, hold it. Is that [inaudible 00:11:48] Wasn't your [inaudible 00:11:52]?
What year were you born?
GA: '42.
LB: [inaudible 00:12:13] It's here. We went over your-- That would have been interesting. When was that happening? It really looks like-- I don't really understand. At some point, in the not-too-distant house, it went over here and here, which is probably a really big change in terms of how you [inaudible 00:12:38] about the [inaudible 00:12:40] It moved 2 degrees [unintelligible 00:12:43] over there. [inaudible 00:12:46]
GA: It just moved 2 degrees during the whole year?
LB: Yes.
GA: God.
LB: It's now 27 degrees. I guess about sometime within the last year or two, probably last year, and you've been feeling it for a while. Before that, you were feeling it still, but there was some point at which it was the most intense, and it was probably some time in the last year, towards the earlier part of last year. Maybe, I don't know, maybe the middle. It's hard to tell.

GA: I've been having really intense times for like a year and a half.
LB: Yes. It's transformation in terms of the way that you think and a real deepening of the way that you think.
GA: mmhm
LB: Anyway, and you still are in the middle of it. You're still technically in motion.
GA: [chuckles]
LB: Quite. It moved, and it was 2 degrees.
GA: Yes.
LB: [unintelligible 00:13:46]
GA: That's [inaudible 00:13:47].
LB: [inaudible 00:13:48] I understand. I mean, it's difficult, probably a little bit shaky at moments.
GA: Well, I don't know what's going on, but it's been going on since May. I really felt it.
LB: I really [unintelligible 00:14:06] in terms of, it's real interesting to look back on different periods and different real big changes in people's lives and stuff. Health things are real interesting to look at too. There was like a roommate of mine who had an ulcer, who we figured out. We figured out when it started and looked back in her chart, and it's these outrageous transits. I mean, all having to do with Cancer, and just the stomach, and Mars things and Saturn. Mars and Saturn and 4th House Cancer stuff. It was just like so clear, and it was incredible.
GA: Yes. I wonder if that was going on when I had my-- [crosstalk]
LB: Yes. I mean, for that, it was especially look-- We look-- possibly for Cancer, but especially for Scorpio, it kind of split up things.

GA: Well, if I got an ephemeris, would you teach me how to use it?
LB: Sure. I could teach you right here, because this is an ephemeris. This is what a page of an ephemeris looks like.
GA: I see.
LB: When you get the book. You look at the dates. These are all the different planets, and you just look down. It's-- Like on the 6th, the sun is-- this is-- you look at the top of the column for the sign, in the middle, for the sign, if it changes somewhere. Like there, it changes to a [unintelligible 00:15:31] at that point.
GA: You need a magnifying glass.
LB: Yes. Anyways, on the 6th, it's 15 degrees, 20.6 minutes Capricorn.
GA: Ahh. Oh, well that's easy.
LB: Yes. I mean, it's hard to read the numbers on this page, but that's how you do it.
GA: If I want to figure out where Uranus is right now, today is the 2nd.
LB: 3rd.
GA: The 3rd. It's 2 degrees south.
LB: Yes. 2 degrees 47.1.
GA: That might as well be 3.
LB: That's almost 3, yes.
GA: Sagittarius, so that was right over my ascendant.
LB: No, it's not. This is what I was telling you. It's around your 12th house. It's not going to move over your ascendant until next year.
GA: Oh, okay.
LB: And it goes backwards probably.
GA: I see. That's easy. It's easy to do. Then if I want to look up when I was operated, then I just look up. Okay.
LB: Yes. You find [inaudible 00:16:38] you look at the date, and you write down all the planets, and you go back to your chart and figure out all the aspects.
GA: okay

[Tape stops and starts again]

LB: The transits, in terms of looking at the transits in general, you look at-- The inner planets are all much faster and they're much more sort of localized and sort of like what's going on in your life at the moment. You have a fight with a friend this day, you write a poem, those kinds of transits. I mean they're much-- where you're really concerned with one particular issue this week, or something. It's much more daily life kind of thing.
There are transits that are much more profound in your life are from Saturn on and out. Saturn turns [inaudible 00:17:36] In terms of your lever gear, which means it's pretty close to the beginning, so it's like a [inaudible 00:17:44]. There's a couple things that could be going on. First of all, possibly some sense of restriction in terms of friendships, feeling like a lack of friends or else possibly a feeling like you want to gather all your friends around you.
GA: Sí.
LB: Feeling like you really-- you like, all of a sudden, they've become much more precious to you. There's a little bit of this kind of wanting to conserve your circle.
GA: Sí.
LB: And a sense of the responsibility in terms of what you're kind of feeling. It just feels a little more weighty than it does usually.
GA: Yes. I started crying Christmas Eve because I miss my family and my friends. I never cry, hardly ever cry.
LB: Yeah. Possibly of feeling a little bit of a lack of a community at the moment.
GA: Sí.

LB: Also, whenever-- whereever Saturn is, there's some sense of restriction and there's also, it's a real time of learning about what your needs are in that particular area of your life and how do you want to handle it. It's just go through a lot of figuring out that particular part of your life. That's all going on there, and the friendships and collectives and political groups, that kind of stuff. That'll be going on. That'll be sort of an issue, more or less, for the next [unintelligible 00:19:26]
Actually, no, Saturn goes to the Scorpio at end of this year, but then I think it goes back prob-- knowing Saturn, it probably goes back, it fits back [inaudible 00:19:39]. Actually, it's 60 degrees, no, it won't be. Let's see. Saturn is about [inaudible 00:19:47] Yes, almost next year, probably the end of the year. It's always [inaudible 00:19:57]
GA: [chuckles] But that's not going to happen.
LB: For two years.
GA: For two years.

LB: [inaudible 00:20:06] another two years. There'll be [unintelligible 00:20:10] Saturn return. Saturn returns are a big deal. They [inaudible 00:20:15]
GA: No, but everybody's always talking about it.
LB: Saturn returns, it's when Saturn comes back to the place where it was when you were even born.
GA: Oh, So that's what it is?
LB: Yes, and it's a real interesting time for a lot of people. It depends a lot on how Saturn is placed in the chart. It also has a lot to do with how much you've been getting your shit together around Saturn for the last 28 years. It's a 28-year cycle. Your Saturn return happens somewhere between when you're 27 and 30.
It's interesting because you look at all kinds of people's lives. You notice all these people. Even hippies turn into businessmen, and, you know, people would be-- Whatever.
GA: And businessmen turn into hippies.
LB: This is when people also have decided that "No, this is not really what they want to do." They want to do something else. It's a real re-evaluation time. There's some people, the people who have been real disciplined, real strong about really getting it together about what they want to do with themselves. It's usually a real rewarding kind of time. It depends, but a lot people go through a lot of changes. There's a much more figuring out what your priorities are in your life. That's somewhere around 28 years old, 29 years old.
GA: It seems that I have to do that every few years. [crosstalk] Basically, I know, overall--
LB: Yeah, It's also like a square every seven years with it. It comes to another crisis or hot, intense point every seven-plus years. Anyway, that--

GA: Would there be a way to devise a chart that you could superimpose on this and move around?
LB: No, because the planets will move at different rates. No. You would probably make [unintelligible 00:22:26] all the planets [unintelligible 00:22:27]
GA: [laughs] [crosstalk] That might be worth doing. I love to do-- play with little things like that.
LB: [crosstalk] It's very handy, actually [unintelligible 00:22:41] aspectarian.
GA: As-pect-arian?
LB: It's like a little wheel, and it tells what year [unintelligible 00:22:50] All the planets and aspects-- All the aspects written on [inaudible 00:22:54] On the outside [inaudible 00:22:57] on the inside [inaudible 00:22:58] Anyway, what you do is you figure out aspects of it, and you can figure them out [snaps fingers] like that because it's got it all just like, "Okay, one is 29 degrees, and then the other one is 30 degrees, this, and you just read it right off there, where there is [unintelligible 00:23:17]
GA: Do you have one of those?
LB: I don't think I have one anymore. I used to have one. They're real handy. They cost like $2 or something. You can check them on [unintelligible 00:23:24]
GA: Oh, I should get one?
LB: They're really handy. They're really handy when you're doing transits because you can just figure out what the [unintelligible 00:23:30] planet at the moment [unintelligible 00:23:33] on the chart. You would line up one of the points with the degree that that planet was at, and then you would just look around the wheel and even read off where the squares are, where the oppositions are, where the [unintelligible 00:23:49] are [unintelligible 00:23:50] and look on the chart and [inaudible 00:23:51]

GA: [coughs] This is a very deep subject. You can just-- There's layers and layers and layers.
LB: Oh, God. It's so deep, you [unintelligible 00:23:58] I have to go [inaudible 00:24:04]
GA: Well you've been really helpful. I'm glad I got [unintelligible 00:24:10]
LB: [unintelligible 00:24:11]
GA: Yeah. [coughs] I feel sort of guilty for keeping you up late. Are you gonna have to get up early?
LB: [inaudible 00:24:17]
GA: It's after 3:00.
LB: [inaudible 00:24:21]
GA: [coughs] Maybe you can sleep in the car.
LB: I'm not going home [inaudible 00:24:29] I'm going at [inaudible 00:24:30]
GA: Oh.
LB: At this point, I have [inaudible 00:24:33] He's an old friend.
GA: Is it George Johnson?
LB: Yeah. Do you know George?
GA: Yeah.

[End of Recording]

Lisa Biow: Jupiter in terms of philosophy, which I think the way that they mean that translates into what we would call politics, somebody's politics, and also philosophy [unintelligible 00:00:13]
Gloria Anzaldúa: That makes sense.
LB: Your image of how the world fits together and what it all means and that kind of stuff in an intellectualized way is Jupiter, Sag, 9th house stuff.
GA: Because it's in Cancer, so I want the world to be one big happy family. [laughs]
LB: Well, it would be even more so if you had Cancer in the 9th house. I should go on, because the other thing that Jupiter, specifically, as the planet is Jupiter has a lot to do with the kinds of stuff that make you feel very expansive. The kinds of experiences and parts of yourself and activities that make you feel like the world is your oyster and everything is terrific and real-- I don't know what word I want. Just very at home in the world and grandiose and wonderful and all that stuff.
It's interesting. One of my best friends has no fire in her chart whatsoever, and she's generally very-- She's earth and water, and is usually real calm and into herself and not real out there in the world. She has a Jupiter in Leo. If you can get her to dance, which is a real trick, you can just watch that all of a sudden that the sense of-- If you can get her into doing something Leo, which is not easy because it clashes very much with her sense of who she is, all of a sudden she's very--
GA: Sí.
LB: Jupiter and Cancer means a lot of that sense of really being at home in the world and everything is fine comes from-- It's rooted in home stuff, having a homebase, having a real secure environment, and also emotional connectiveness somewhere. If you're ever going through stages in your life where, say, you're doing all intellectual stuff or all physical stuff or all out there in the world stuff without that internal, emotional-- What else can I say about Cancer? It's very much burrowing into yourself in this kind of way and making a home inside of yourself. If you're ever missing that in your life at some point, it's very hard to really get that sort of everything is okay. If you're missing--
GA: Yes, I tended to bring my home with me, take my home with me. I learned how to do that, but it was hard.
LB: I want to look up Jupiter in the 8th house. I could make a good guess at it, but I'll rather look it up.
GA: Sure.

LB: [unintelligible 00:03:26]
GA: [unintelligible 00:03:29]
LB: Now let's see, here. [unintelligible 00:03:36] There's a nice little circle, here. It's like [unintelligible 00:03:56] from Mars to Pluto [unintelligible 00:04:00]
It's sort of like like a mini grand trine. A grand trine is this wonderful aspect that everybody always wants.
GA: Which I don't have.
LB: Which you don't have. Linda has one. They're very, very rare. We have three planets that are all trying to be [unintelligible 00:04:15] circle of energy. It's like a mini grand trine with two [unintelligible 00:04:21] There's a really fluid connection between those three planets. It's nice, and puts more emphasis on the Pluto, which is in the middle.
Pluto in 8th house. The energy in both of those are similar. It's like the 8th house is the Pluto of the houses, kind of. It means that in some way there's a lot of emphasis in your life on transformation, a lot. There's a thing about Pluto where there's a constant need to transform yourself, move to another level. It's like the phoenix, is that symbol.

GA: I'm always worried about change and always talking about change and transformation.
LB: There's a real need for that, because-- [unintelligible 00:05:17] image that Scorpios always have?
GA: I'm always talking about cycles and with this and with that.
LB: The other thing about that transformation is you need to be doing that. People who have a lot of Scorpio in their chart need to go through these rather enormous transformations in their life pretty regularly or they go backwards.
GA: These are people that have Scorpio?
LB: A lot of Scorpio, a lot of 8th house or a heavy Pluto. Any of those three. You need to go through transformations pretty regularly or the energy degenerates. You can't stand still. You need to go through it or you lose it and you fly backwards. That's what happens [unintelligible 00:06:23] [crosstalk]
GA: That's why I need to move around, because by moving around I stir things up.

LB: Yes. You know the Tower card in tarot?
GA: Yes.
LB: The Tower card and the Death card are both real Scorpio cards. The Tower is when you resist it, and you get thrown on your face because you've been getting a little too uppity and you haven't been willing to move it to another level.
GA: It's also interchange.
LB: Yes.
GA: I like both of those cards.
LB: Yeah, I do, too.
GA: When I get them I know I'm in for something.
LB: Yeah. I almost feel like the Tower is the one where you really need to go through changes and you're trying really hard not to, but Death card is really a lot more fluid in that way [unintelligible 00:07:11] no, wait, stop.
GA: [laughs]

LB: Anyway, it's [unintelligible 00:07:20] and that's a real important thing in your chart that, need to be [unintelligible 00:07:24]
What else? The moon's nodes. I don't know a whole, whole a lot about the moon's nodes. I know some. Supposedly what they're about is the South Node is the kinds of stuff that comes real easy to you. It's real natural, second nature stuff. Also in the south node, [unintelligible 00:08:00] in a way that can be real productive. They're things that come so easy to you you don't even need to think about them. The problem is that you can get really stuck there, because it's so easy.
GA: You don't want to let go.
LB: So long as you use it and move with it to another place, it's fine. The way people interpret it, if you were into karmic astrology is the South Node is stuff that's left over from the last lifetime. You don't even need to think about it, it's just very second nature. The North Node is the stuff that you need to do in this lifetime. They're opposite to each other [unintelligible 00:08:43] moving this way, using this to move there. So the South Node--
GA: I have a hard time letting go, just letting go and going.
LB: Yeah, getting on with it.

LB: The South Node in your chart is 3rd house Pisces, which is-- [unintelligible 00:09:11] 3rd house is one of the things that comes easy to you is…Verbal stuff comes fairly easy to you and thinking in terms of gathering information. [unintelligible 00:09:23] [crosstalk]-
GA: Oh, I love to do that.
LB: -intellectual butterfly, or just lots of information, everything is just fascinating, little bits of this and that are all wonderful.
GA: That's my favorite phase of anything, when I'm writing or collecting all the little bits and pieces and images and ideas and notes. That's real easy. I can do that. I love doing that. I have whole notebooks where I collect things, but getting past that stage--
LB: The trick is to move from that to the Sagittarian–[unintelligible] To develop to the 9th house thing which is the-- Geminis are collecting all the little pieces, and Sagittarius is the big picture, when you put it all together and you make it into a system or a vision.
GA: That's great. That's a good image.
LB: The pitfalls of the two, Gemini can't see the forest for the trees and Sagittarians can't see the trees for the forest. It's fun-- Intellectual styles, it's 3rd house, 9th house, Gemini and Sag are real different. You can have huge arguments about it, too. Geminis don't care about how it all fits together so much. It's just all the pieces are so interesting. They can be very objective in that sense.

GA: I'm learning how to put the little pieces together. The other stuff comes naturally, but putting the little pieces together, I have to work at it. I'm usually go through a trauma right after I finish gathering everything and then I know I have to start processing it and putting it together. I have writer's block. I go through this trauma every single time, even if it's just a poem. Usually I need to just go with the process and sit and not do anything about it for a couple of weeks, and then slowly of itself it'll-- When I try and force it it's very traumatic.
LB: That's interesting, because I work the other way around. I get the big picture first, and then I have to go back and actually fill it in and make it so that it really is comprehensible and makes sense and back up what I'm saying. That's were I get all--
GA: See, I start off by having the big picture, an idea, [unintelligible 00:11:39] the vision and then I gather all this little data, but to glue it together, that's where the trauma comes.
LB: The other thing about this South Node, North Node things is that South Node is in Pisces and North Node is in Virgo. Some of the ways that intellectual stuff comes to you is in terms of-- It's Piscean, it's psychic and very fluid and spacey and a little mystical and all that, and the stuff that's harder and that you have to work for more is the much more disciplined-
GA: Detailed.
LB: -focused, detail-oriented.
GA: Sí. Exactly. Wow, do you know me.
[laughter]
LB: Virgo in the 6th house are real interesting, especially being a Leo. I used to always have problems relating to that stuff, at all. The more I think about it, it's the hermit card in Tarot or the virgin, not in the sense of Virgin Mary, but the ancient virgins who were the temple priestesses.
GA: Sufficient unto themselves.
LB: Yes, and all that stuff, or Diana. A lot to do with purification, not in a puritanical sense, but in the sense of dropping all the garbage so you can get on with it.

GA: Did you tell me that you had read that book about the myths that have to do with astrology? What is it called, God Herself? Oh, you've got to look at that. I'll show it to you when you get back. [unintelligible 00:13:31]
[pause 00:13:34]
LB: Oh, this is nice. I knew it. This is an interesting piece of trivia. I was teaching an astrology class once, at the full moon actually, and--
GA: You were teaching an astrology class?
LB: Yes.
GA: Oh, I'd like to take a class from you. [crosstalk]
LB: [unintelligible 00:14:05]
GA: Are you going to-
LB: I don't do-- I have a friend, though, in New York, they moved to New York [unintelligible 00:14:08] who teaches-- I don't know if she's teaching it at the moment, but she's going to begin at some point, I'm sure, teaches an astrology class. She's a very good astrologer. She's a Sag with a moon in Pisces. She's a lovely person, and she's really good. She teaches here and there. She's good. I would recommend her, because I'm not doing it. I have evenings where I get into it. I sat down and gave Meg and Julia an astrology class for two hours one morning. It was really fun.
GA: Did they like that?
LB: Yeah, they loved it. [unintelligible 00:14:41] Anyway, in the astrology class we were talking about the different ages. You know that term of going into the age of Aquarius? Each one is 2,000 years long. We were talking about that-- and they go backwards. It's the age we're in is Pisces now, going to Aquarius, and before that was Aries and before that was Taurus. It's interesting in terms of when you think about-- The Arian age was Greek and Roman, the barbarians and everybody killing everybody, else which is very Aries stuff, the age of the heroes. Then Pisces is the age of the martyrs. We were thinking about all this stuff.
GA: Jesus Christ.
LB: Yes. Taurus astrologically would make sense. These people also, I found that afterwards, came up with this theory that Taurus was the age of the matriarchy, fertility and all that stuff.

GA: Well, there's a book that you might be interested in. It's called Green Paradise Lost.
LB: No, never heard of it.
GA: It's by this woman named Dodson. She talks about how we're at the cusp and how we might have Aquarian ideals but operating from a Piscean perspective, so you end up with all the spiritual and occult stuff that is for self-interest rather than for-- It's really interesting [unintelligible 00:16:20]--
LB: That makes sense. Anyway, a woman in my class also came up with that theory that seems like it makes sense to me. Victorian.
GA: Victorian age.
LB: What about the age of Gemini? It was [unintelligible 00:16:38] [laughter]
LB: I don't know if they were [unintelligible 00:16:41] Anyway. [unintelligible 00:16:49]

GA: You're probably tired.
LB: [unintelligible 00:16:52]
GA: Maybe you'd like to finish off by talking about maybe in the broad strokes about Uranus, because that seems to be-- It was such a shocker to hear you say that because it would have never dawned on me.
LB: That it was important?
GA: Yes, that it was important in the chart, because as far as I knew there was just that--
LB: Yes, it's interesting, because usually unless there's certain aspects or placement or something unusual going on with that planet, it's not a very important planet in people's charts, unless they'd doing a lot of spiritual disciplines, which is different. If people are heading into spiritual stuff then the outer planets are more involved, because they have to do with that. Otherwise people who are living normal, everyday sorts of lives, usually those planets are not very important. They're much more important by generation. On your chart I wonder where the aspects of [unintelligible 00:17:50] There's the [unintelligible 00:17:53] Mars, there's the sextile, there's that little triangle, there's conjunct. That's an interesting conjunction, too.
GA: What, Saturn and-- Oh, I hadn't thought of that as loose.
LB: It's loose, but it makes it-- [unintelligible 00:18:21] [silence]

GA: This is trine Sun?
LB: Yes. It's trining your Sun and it's trining your Mars. It's not the most important planet in your chart, but it's important. It's important mostly by aspect, all those aspects. These two trines and that sextile. They're all numerous aspects, too. Has it got any squares? Yes, and it is square your nodes. The only aspects you count to the node are squares.
GA: So Uranus square nodes?
LB: Squares, conjunctions and oppositions, those are the only ones that count. It's not considered a bad or difficult aspect when it's square to the nodes, usually. I don't know. People argue back and forth about that. Some people do consider it difficult. Some people would read a square from this to the nodes as being a little bit out of sync with the times in either direction, either being a little bit ahead of the times or a little bit-- Probably ahead if it's Uranus, Uranus is always ahead, but being a little bit ahead of your world so that there's always-- It makes it difficult and exciting at the same time, because it tends for people to think you're a little off the walls sometimes.
GA: Sí. Yes. [laughs]
LB: Yes, you're [unintelligible 00:20:02]
GA: Yes.
LB: At least 20 years ahead of yourself.
GA: [chuckles]

LB: Ahead of the rest of us. Those are the things that make a focal in your chart, but what it means is-- Actually, I should look up more about Uranus and the 6th house, because it's such an unusual combination and the energy is very different in-- It's 6th house. Uranus being this very explosive, very-- I almost think of Uranus having this incredible sense of humor, almost. It's a very jester-like planet in you.
GA: In such a serious house.
LB: The 6th house is such a serious house, and such a discipline, real, creating a sense of ritual about your life and very much evenly-- Everything is very ritualized and spaced. Uranus is all just explosion and very fast and very impulsive. It's an interesting combination. Anyways. What I think it means is that stuff about– First, there's also a thing of a tendency to get sudden illnesses.
GA: Oh, yeah. Near death once. [laughs]
LB: But fast. All of sudden. It's like you're fine one day, you're dying the next day, and that things.
GA: Sí.
LB: Also to get over them fast, often, or to get strange illnesses. That kind of thing. It's also the house of the body [unintelligible 00:21:41]
GA: The 6th house?
LB: Yeah. The body. It has lots to do with health and stuff, in general, the 6th house. It's [unintelligible 00:21:51] the body as temple. It's real 6th house kind of thing. It has lots to do with health and healing, and also with work and [unintelligible 00:22:06] [crosstalk]
GA: I can't believe it. Everything you're saying is just so right on.
LB: Oh, good.

GA: Yeah. The thing about the body as temple and this whole thing about healing my body that I've been doing for two years now, it's like everything--
LB: Another thing about that, though, is in terms of Uranus being this planet of real sharp, fast insight, you should, especially in terms of physical stuff, you should really trust your impulsive, "I need to stop eating this," "I need to do this now." Whenever you get a sudden, "I need to do" whatever, in terms of your body, you should believe it.
GA: You should believe it.
LB: You should pay attention.
GA: Yeah, I don't do that when I need to rest. When I feel tired I say, "I should go to bed," and I keep on working. That's fouling me up.
LB: It's not only just you think you need to do something, but it's more sort of like if you were walking through the store someday, and you all of a sudden realized that you really needed something, and it just came out of nowhere and you had no idea where that thought came from, you know it's a Uranian thing.
GA: I need tomatoes.
LB: Yes. I go through this things sometimes of all of a sudden it's like, "I know it's time to change this," and then just [snaps finger] all of a sudden, and that kind of-- Another thing is that in terms of your work, your work hours are always going to be a little bit strange. You're working all night kind of things, right?
GA: Did you want a cigarette?
LB: I have them somewhere around here.

GA: Because either I would get up very, very early or I wouldn't go to sleep at all or I do what I do now, which is to stay up until six or seven o'clock.
LB: You don't have to worry about getting stuck in any nine to five office job for 20 years, either.
GA: Oh, really?
LB: It's just not in your chart.
GA: [laughs]
LB: It just will not happen.
GA: I refuse to do shift work.
LB: You will find another way to do things, and you won't-- You won't be able to stand it, basically. You don't have to worry about yourself sliding into it, because you won't be able to stand it.
GA: I have never been able to. I hate those kinds of jobs, unless I have a lot of flexibility.
LB: You won't be able to do it. You'll get around it, too. You realize you can get there. It's fine. At the last minute something will come up. All of a sudden, there'll be some other opportunity.

GA: What about the financial aspect? I had never been worried about money as I have been about money for the past couple of months. People always tell me, "Oh, well." Not to worry about money, that it's going to be there when I need it. They all say it. Where did they get that? Where did they get that?
LB: Probably your Jupiter in the 8th house, partly. It helps. You shouldn't be surprised if people give you money. You're likely to have people give you money sometimes when you really need it.
GA: It's happened, yes.
LB: Very possible. In some strange way, it doesn't really make sense, 8th house has to do with other people's money. Taurus has to do with your own money. 2nd house Taurus, your own money. 8th house has to do with other people's money. You have your Jupiter there, which is the planet of expansion and good luck and fortune. It pulls you through. Money from other people will descend on you in these lucky streaks or from out there somewhere.
GA: I hope it starts descending.
LB: There's nothing in your chart saying you're going to be wealthy, but it doesn't look like you're going to have a hard time of it, either. Then there's the Uranus and the 6th house is the work thing, of jobs all falling fast and out of the blue here and there. It's likely you'll get to the point where you're down to your last cent and you don't know what you're going to do, all of a sudden something will pop up.

GA: There will be a job. What about the fact that it's ruled by Taurus in my own chart, or do you go more by the natural, which would be Virgo?
LB: You use the house cusps. It's always interesting when you've got a planet in the house that falls in a different sign from the one that's on the cusp. You got a mixed thing going on in the house. With the Taurus, it's a much more steady, stubborn, patient, material-oriented approach in the 6th house matters. On the part of you that is real conscientious and very steady about the way you're eating, it's a very Taurus-like way of dealing with things. Uranus in Gemini is just much flakier [GA laughs] and much more sporadic and much more, "I feel like doing this now, so I'm going to do this." It's a little bit--
GA: Yes, there's a lot of struggle. Sometimes I want to eat, go eat stuff with sugar.
LB: Another thing is that-- The Taurus is real self-indulgent. People who have Taurus rising-- I have Taurus rising, this doesn't fit me at all, but usually people that have Taurus rising have a really hard time keeping their weight down because they like to eat so much. It's really into sensual pleasures.
GA: You don't have that problem?
LB: No, I guess not. Not at this particular moment, anyway. It goes into dancing, massage, that kind of stuff. It's [unintelligible 00:27:27] but it's a visionary planet. The stuff about healing, about fast insight into [unintelligible 00:27:37]

GA: What is the “DT” over here?
LB: I think what that means is that it just went direct. What happens is that when the planets switch from retrograde to direct or direct to retrograde, there's a period in which they slow down markedly, and then they go again. There's like a shifting of the gears and they slow down a lot. Different people make different things about it being more-- I don't even know what to do with it, but I know that there's something about--
GA: It came up right when on the shift point or after the shift. That's funny, because I talk a lot about this shift in perspective in my essay.
LB: It's interesting. That's Uranus kind of stuff. Uranus is like-- it's like a kaleidoscope. You turn the kaleidoscope and the whole thing changes. That's Uranus kind of stuff. All of a sudden something happens, and the way the world looks to you is suddenly completely rearranged, all the pieces are in different places, and your perspective on something changes very fast and very radically. It's very Uranian.
It's going to be really interesting when it goes [unintelligible 00:28:54] I think it'll be a nice point, too. The Neptune stuff you can probably do without-- You can't do without it. It's there and you should deal with it. It's probably good for you, but it's not easy. The Uranus stuff, I think, will be fun. Traumatic in moments, but it's--
GA: Isn't it happening now, though?
LB: Yeah. I mean, it's there. I don't know exactly where.
GA: What does this--
LB: It's somewhere in Sag. No, that's Uranus. Neptune. When was this done?
GA: This was done last May.

LB: Last night Neptune was in the first house. Probably had been there for at least-- I don't know, sometime within last year it went into the first house. Sometime around the time [unintelligible 00:29:43] started looking more confusing in terms of what you want-- The whole thing I was talking to about that Neptune transit being a time when it's really hard to get a handle on who you are in relation to other people and how you want to be putting yourself out there in the world.
GA: You don't think it's happening now?
LB: Yes, it is happening now. It's just that it started then.
GA: It's going to stay there for a little while?
LB: It's going to stay in your 1st house for approximately 11 years, but it's most intense now because it's [unintelligible 00:30:15]. Oh, good. This will tell us. [silence] Somewhere in here there will be a-- I'm not sure. [unintelligible 00:30:30] What's today?
GA: January [crosstalk]--
LB: [unintelligible 00:30:38] Just checking [unintelligible 00:30:40] The moon is an Aries. Yes, [unintelligible 00:30:43] It really felt in Aries last night, and everyone was dancing through all hours of the [unintelligible 00:30:50]
GA: Oh, yeah, and I was able to do all those pages of writing.
LB: Well, your moon is in Aries. It's an interesting time for you when it's in Aries. You'd be writing from a much less conscious, "This is what I'm going to do now," and a much more rush of energy that you're not quite sure where it's coming from.
GA: Yes, I was flabbergasted, because usually I just do what I have to do.

LB: Yes, yes, that would make sense. [unintelligible 00:31:21] I always have a difficult time when the moon is in my 12th house. Moon in the 12th house always feels to me like premenstrual time, or almost at something and not quite there yet.
GA: The moon is in your 12th house right now?
LB: Yes, actually, it's in my 12th house. It wasn't yesterday. It's going to be today and tomorrow, and it will go into my first house sometime [unintelligible 00:32:02]
GA: The moon right now is in my 5th house. Is that right?
LB: Which is also the house of creativity and self-expression, an especially fortuitous time to write. The easiest moons for you are, let me see, in Aries-- Oh, there's some tension there, too. The beginning of Aries is hard for you a little bit, sometimes.
GA: Oh, yeah. I get very out of sorts.
LB: Because it's opposing your sun, and the later part of Aries [unintelligible 00:32:46] today, actually. Sunday. [unintelligible 00:32:54].

GA: When was the moon in Pisces?
LB: It was in Pisces at New Year's, actually.
GA: Yes, that's when I have a hard time. It's like everything is so big.
LB: Actually, it went into Aries on New Year's-- Just before New Year's it went into Aries, which is odd.
GA: Well, then that's when I was having a hard time. Yes, that's when I was having a hard time.
GA: Now it's in Aries. [unintelligible 00:33:22] Well, now it's moving [unintelligible 00:33:24], which is going to be luminous. It's difficult when it's– Cancer moon is a hard moon for me, and Capricorn moon is a hard moon for me.
GA: I noticed that Capricorn is hard.
LB: Cancer, not as much, because at some point in the later part of Cancer it transits with Jupiter, which is nice. The early part of Cancer is a drag, because it squares your sun and with Mars.

GA: In a few days it'll go into Taurus, the moon?
LB: [unintelligible 00:33:55] it goes into Taurus [unintelligible 00:33:57] very early in the morning.
GA: That's very interesting because, see, I had kept up with the houses and the planets, but I hadn't kept up with the moon and the houses. That's really interesting.
LB: Yes, it's interesting. [unintelligible 00:34:13] It makes a big difference. People of suns in Cancer or moons in Cancer or a lot of stuff in Cancer or in some other way have a very strong moon feel the moon cycles much more than other people. A lot depends on your char. Depending on what planets are pronounced in your chart to start off with, different transits will hit you stronger than they would other people. I feel the moon transits pretty strongly because [unintelligible 00:34:43] I feel the sun transits real strongly. You would feel Jupiter transits a lot and Venus transits a lot.
GA: Like my friend Randy has his moon in the 10th house, and he's always very keenly aware of the moon.
LB: What sign is it in?
GA: Moon in Virgo.
LB: A strong [unintelligible 00:35:20]. Yes. I have a friend with a moon in Cancer, and we sat down, we were working with her chart once and-- No, she's got sun in Cancer, moon in Virgo. We figured out, and it was real interesting, it helped her a lot. We figured out that-- I sat down and started telling her which moons would be difficult for her and which moons wouldn't, and she was like, "I go through this every month." It was like, once she got used to the idea that that was happening, it was like the times-- there were three signs in a row that were all real difficult for her, and every month she would go through a week that was just the pits.
Once she got used to the fact that, yes, okay, that's happening and it's going to pass in three days, it was much more manageable to her because she would just be incredibly depressed, and it would drag on. It wasn't just even a two and a half day one. It was seven, eight days in a row it would be rough for her, and once she got used to the idea that, yes, that was going to happen, it was more manageable.

GA: That doesn't happen with my chart, does it? Just for the moon?
LB: Your moon is not that heavy duty in your chart. There are some moons that are more difficult for you than others, and they're not sequential. They're not one right after the other.
GA: That's good. [laughs]
LB: Yes, you have a rough time with Capricorn. Capricorn's probably the worst. Capricorn, early Cancer. Capricorn, especially early Capricorn. The early part of Aries. Those are the lousy ones.
GA: Oh, yes. Today I went into my second house.
LB: Oh, that's interesting. Your financial situation will probably get a little better.
GA: I hope so.
LB: At least you'll be paying more attention to it. We know that much. All right, so tell me where [unintelligible 00:37:06] [pause 00:37:09]

LB: Almost always somewhere in these things they have just a little diagram of where everything is at the moment. [unintelligible 00:37:28].
GA: I also have the-- You know the Shambhala astrological calendar?
LB: You have that?
GA: I have it right over my desk.
LB: Do you have one with [unintelligible 00:37:41]? I don't know that one.
GA: I don't know. I got this for Christmas. Every year I get one, and this year I got one given to me.
LB: [unintelligible 00:38:00] You've got everything in here [unintelligible 00:38:19] [crosstalk]
GA: They have an ephemeris.
LB: Oh, they do?
GA: I think they have one for each.
LB: This is for this year?
GA: Yes, this is January.

LB: [unintelligible 00:38:27] Here we go. Oh, I can do--Mirtha has been asking me to do her transits [unintelligible 00:38:32]. Okay.
You should write this-- Oh, you have some tape? You want to know what these tr--I'll tell you what all these transits are.
GA: I lost my pen.
LB: You should write these down because [unintelligible 00:38:47].
GA: I don't know what I did with my pen. Oh, here it is. Can you see?
LB: Yes. Sun is 15 degrees Capricorn. [unintelligible 00:39:06].
GA: What do I write?
LB: Sun is 17 degrees Capricorn. Moon is 10 degrees Aries. Mercury is 26 degrees Capricorn. Venus is eight degrees Aquarius retrograde. Mars is 8 degrees Libra. Jupiter is six and a half degrees Scorpio. Saturn is one and a half degrees Libra. Mars is three degrees Sagittarius. [unintelligible 00:40:21] Neptune is 14 degrees Sagittarius. [unintelligible 00:40:34] Pluto is 27 degrees Libra. [unintelligible 00:40:50] Assuming that your chart is exactly accurate, it's hard to assume. It's not going to [unintelligible 00:41:06]
GA: What, Uranus? Oh, so the big change will be-- God, that's exciting.
LB: You just have Neptune to [unintelligible 00:41:13] Neptune is going to go back over there soon. [unintelligible 00:41:18] Neptune is-- It's pretty close to your [unintelligible 00:41:22] What did I tell you? I have the degrees wrong. What did I tell you on Neptune?
GA: 14 degrees Sag.

LB: [unintelligible 00:41:37] So it's moving along there. Okay, what did I just tell you? I'm [unintelligible 00:41:50]
GA: I'm already into Capricorn.
LB: Well, this is by transit. That's different from progression.
GA: Oh, okay.
LB: That's where the sun is right now, as opposed to-- When you do a progression, what you do is, it's like you're taking your own chart and moving it through time, as opposed to just where they are right now and how they're hitting your chart
GA: I forget that--
LB: The progression is much more internal, your own chart moved along. How you're moving along in your own life, as opposed to what they're doing and how it's affecting you.
GA: Sí, I forget that.
LB: The sun is in your 2nd house. The moon is in your 4th house. That's interesting. There's a lot more emotional attachment going on to your own space.
GA: Oh, yeah. I'm having all that, yeah.
LB: Just in the last [unintelligible 00:42:53]
GA: Yeah, when Sonia and Mirtha came back, it was almost like I resented the fact that-- I was glad they were back, but it took me a day or so to adjust.

LB: Yes. [unintelligible 00:43:14]
GA: Right now?
LB: Yes. It's going backwards, so [unintelligible 00:43:37] Mars is in your 10th house. [unintelligible 00:43:46] Jupiter is your 9th house. [unintelligible 00:43:54] Jupiter is in your 10th house. Saturn is in the 10th house.
GA: Are they going to stay there for the rest of the month, you think?
LB: Yes. I mean, well some of them will. Saturn-- As you move out along this way, they get slower. Mercury is the fastest. No, the moon is the fastest. Mercury and the sun are almost the same. I think Mercury's moving a little bit faster, and then Venus, Mars, Jupiter. Saturn will be in that house for a while. Even the Jupiter [unintelligible 00:44:44].
GA: That'll be a lot of energy.
LB: Which one?
GA: With all those in the 10th house.
LB: Yeah. A lot of 10th house coming up.
Yes, a lot of energy for your-- The stuff on you having a lot invested in wanting to make an effect on the world, there's a lot of energy for that. However you have chosen to do that, which I assume is you're writing, there's a lot of energy for that right now and a lot of stuff going on [unintelligible 00:45:13].
[sound cut]
[00:45:32] [END OF AUDIO]

Lisa Biow: In terms of figuring out the [inaudible 00:00:04] There have different energies coordinated into one. Of the different planets, all the different aspects of your own energy, and how to use it, and different parts of yourself. How those are related to each other. Whether there's a smooth connection between things, or they'll clash.
Gloria Anzaldúa: That's what is meant by bad aspect or good aspect?
LB: Right.
GA: People use that.
LB: That's a lousy way to put it because it's not a matter of bad. There's the harmonious and the unharmonious aspects. The harmonious ones are the trines and the sextiles. The disharmonious ones are the squares and the oppositions, and conjunctions are neutral.
Also, the [unintelligible 00:00:53] is a little bit difficult. Actually, it's probably better, probably the easiest way-- I think the best way to think about them is fluid and difficult, or fluid and stressful.
Conjunction is neutral, although it's a very powerful aspect, it's not really one way or the other. A lot depends on other aspects that are going on, and when the placements are, and that kind of thing. Anyway, the reason why I don't like to think of them in terms of good or bad is, people who have-- I've seen charts of people who have all trines and sextiles, and it doesn't work out very well. It can, depending what your life is about and what you want to be doing.
Things come so easy that it's hard to really move to another plane with anything because you're not challenged. You don't run up against a block that makes you jump to something higher. Squares and oppositions make you do that, it's like some war with yourself that generates a tremendous amount of energy.
GA: That makes sense.
LB: That can give you an amazing amount of [unintelligible 00:02:07] to do something, but [crosstalk]
GA: You have to be dissatisfied with something before you would want to change it.
LB: Right, and also the sparks, the clash.
GA: They're both necessary.
LB: That's why I don't like to look at it, it's more like challenges and blessings. Anyway, that's basically-- There's also, in terms of the different aspects, very briefly, the conjunction is the two planets above, and the conjunction are just very much connected to each other, and they feed each other tremendously in some way. Anyway, men need to strengthen each other.
GA: Like my Sun and Mars.
LB: [unintelligible 00:03:06].
GA: I know, that's funny that they should be together because that's a lot of force.
LB: It's a lot of force. Yes, you have a lot of energy to do stuff. When I say it's neutral, that's the most neutral of the aspects, in that it's a tremendous amount of energy, a lot of initiative, a lot of, ""This is what I want,"" and then they go do it, stuff. Which can be, depending on how you use that, can be wonderful, or can lead to real rashness, jumping into things too fast, being oblivious to other people's needs sometimes. Really and that depends on other aspects. Depends on what you do with it.

GA: I don't think I use my time well because I get tired.
LB: Yes, and also your tendency is to jump into things, sometimes. Work real, real hard and burn out. It is a burnout aspect altogether, tremendous amounts of energy. You really do have tremendous amounts of energy, but you can have trouble disciplining it. Spreading it out over time, conserving it and then--
GA: I've been working to do that for years, to get that kind of discipline. It's been a lot of work.
LB: Even just physically, of saying, "Okay I've done enough for today," and stopping, so you're not wiped out for the next week, but it's also wonderful in terms of just-- It lends a certain fierceness and physical charge to your sense of what you want to do in the world. When you decide you want to do something, the energy is there. It's not like you have to work to get motivated on stuff, [crosstalk] the discipline.
GA: Yes, well what does the fact that Neptune is also so close to that, what does that mean?
LB: Neptune has conjuncture Sun, it's not really, well loosely conjuncture Mars. Sexually, it does make it as a conjunction. There's something called orbs, which is the amount of variance off the exact angle that you still count as that angle. They're different for the different aspects, and they're also different depending on which planets they are. Also, different astrologists disagree on how much [unintelligible 00:05:43] on that. Usually, you allow a larger orb when it's one of the inner planets, it's one of the outer planets. The inner planets being anything from Saturn on in, and the outer planets from Saturn on out. Neptune is one of the real-- It's too past Saturn and Mars as one.
This side of Saturn, so that would be a larger orb, and the conjunction is a pretty large [unintelligible 00:06:08] 8 to 10 degrees. Anything which falls within 10 degrees of each other, especially if it's with one of the lights, sun or the moon, or if it's inner and an outer planet, [unintelligible 00:06:21] towards that. I don't know, it just [unintelligible 00:06:25] settling phase. Actually no, I meant conjuncture, this is almost 30, so [unintelligible 00:06:30] between 6 and more an 8, so it really is a conjunction. Anyway, the Neptune-sun conjunction, Neptune is a lot of that psychic stuff.
How that goes into your sun, is first of all, that's really connected to your sense of self. There's two things going on. In some way, that kind of energy is connected with your own identity and your own idea for who you are, and what you want to do in the world. On the other hand, it's generally a pretty good indication of having some ability in that area. Of having psychic resources that [unintelligible 00:07:14] into.
GA: Well, I better start developing.
LB: Yes, it's there. When you're looking for that psychic, spiritual. Spiritual is not-- It is real spiritual, but it's different things on the chart that within it gets spiritual kinds of energy, and all very different types. Neptunian type of spirituality is very fluid, oceanic, and vague sometimes. It's the pitfalls with all the Neptunian stuff is drugs. It's in fantasy, getting lost in fantasy.
GA: I've done drugs.
LB: Yes, it's a drug thing. It's such an incredible craving for mystical stuff that if you have trouble finding them in your real life, you tend to create it artificially.
GA: I think I do that too.
LB: Yes, but yes, a real rich fantasy life. What else with Neptune? By contrast, something, Scorpio, eighth house, Pluto's type spirituality is a very different- - It's much more occult, much more overwhelming. Neptune is overwhelming in a sense of drowning, but Pluto is like a volcano. It's more occult, it's more explosive. Not fast explosive, but turn your life upside down, everything you ever thought is not going to work anymore. Spirituality, throw it all out the window and start all over. It's very much about upheaval in terms of formation and real, powerful, concentrated, overwhelming stuff. Whereas Neptune is much more diffuse.

GA: Do you know if Scorpio is going to go into Scorpio in the next [crosstalk]?
LB: Yes, and it's a very heavy astrological thing. It takes Pluto, I can't remember calculus. It spends approximately 20 years in this sign, and so it affects whole generations, and it's very interesting stuff. You look historically at the different Pluto transits, it's when Pluto was in Cancer, was the Depression. When Pluto was in Leo was the discovery of atomic energy, and when it was in Virgo was drugs, all the drug culture stuff. Lots of people getting into health stuff, all of a sudden. It sounds like an incredible transformation of consciousness in some way in relation to that particular area.
GA: It's going to be--
LB: Libra is like feminism and relationship stuff. Feminism. When it goes into Scorpio, it's supposed to be the apocalypse, basically.
GA: Oh, yes.
LB: It gets very intense. 1984, actually, Orwell was into astrology, and he picked that date.
GA: I see. I talk about this in my essay a little bit.
LB: It goes into 1984. It should be very heavy.
GA: It stays until the year 2000.
LB: Yes. The world's shortest transit, which is interesting because there's one line about the apocalypse in the Bible. About, unless these times be short, all is lost, or something like that. It's the shortest transit up until now. It's in Scorpio. Anyway, yes, it's very heavy. Certainly, very interesting times we live through, even if you don't know [unintelligible 00:11:17].

GA: There's another sign that's going to be also in Scorpio.
LB: Yes, there's a thing going on. I can't remember exactly when it happens. It's the lineup. I'm not sure if it's in Scorpio or in Sag. It's a lineup of four of the outer planets exactly in alignment at some point in the next few years, which is another just-- Things like every time there's a lineup of any two of the major planets, something really incredible happens. Every time that Jupiter and Pluto, I think, have lined up, the president who has then been in office, has been killed in office. It's like, oh, it's weird. When the outer planets line up, it's intense. Four of them, that never happens. [unintelligible 00:12:05]
GA: It's happening in '82, I think, but I don't know which ones.
LB: I remember somebody once was trying to explain this stuff to me. They told me that things were supposed to get heavy in '80, much heavier in '82, and shit hits the fan in '84.
GA: Oh. [chuckles]
LB: It's like we're going to live through it. It's [unintelligible 00:12:27] very rough timing. The other side of that is the Aquarian Age and also Pluto going into Sagittarius, which will be a transformation in terms of philosophy, politics, and grand belief systems. A new age.
GA: It's exactly what I'm writing about. [laughs] I have to show you my essay when I get done.

LB: It's amazing because when I talk to people who-- My friend, Anne, who is into astrology into a lot of different spiritual stuff. She's such a strange combination. She's a lawyer, and very meticulous about her law. She's not the kind of person who you would think would be into this stuff at all- [crosstalk]
GA: Into astrology.
LB: -but she's completely into it. We just sit around and talk about it, and she's like, such an incredible thing to think that, yes, we know this is going to happen. We know it's going to happen in the next four years and to try and imagine how you can prepare for this is overwhelming, but I'm sort of psyched. [laughter] I think it'll be real interesting. Anyway, that's the generational stuff. The third planet sun house-- Planet that's connected with spiritual stuff I think is Uranus, which is very fast. It's like flash of light. The way the images was, Neptune is like the ocean to me. It's like a tidal wave. Pluto is a volcano, and Uranus is a lightning bolt.
GA: Wow.
LB: Very fast, your world turns upside down. Whenever this heavy Uranus stuff goes on, everything just gets turned on its head. It happens very fast, and it's very disorienting, and it's very exciting. It's not like the slow rumble of Pluto. It's much more like zap. Forget everything you learn [unintelligible 00:14:31] It's exciting, and it's sort of like speaking in tongues kind of thing. Something hits you and you know something. It's like when you're doing something and, all of a sudden, you just know something. You have no idea where you know it from. That's Uranus, obviously.
Uranus is the planet right after Saturn. Saturn has a lot to do with your self-concept, but your self-concept in terms of your own limitations, your idea of this is where I stop. Like your structure in a sometimes positive way, but in also a very limiting way. There's a certain rigidity involved in Saturn. Wherever Saturn falls, and whatever the aspects are, whatever issues are going on with Saturn for you are, the things that you really need to work out in order to move on to spiritual stuff in a lot of ways.

Uranus represents change, revolution, independence, and individual power.
Banzhaf, Hajo, and Anna Haebler. Keywords for Astrology: The Essential Guide to Correspondences and Interpretation of Planets, Signs, Houses, and Aspects. Red Wheel Weiser, 2024.

GA: It has to do with the companion relationships.
LB: Right. It's also like relationship stuff and figuring out relationship stuff is an incredibly profound thing for you. It's like wherever Saturn falls is an area that is in some way restricted, does not come easy. It's like the lessons that you have to learn. There's a lot about what you have to learn, what you have to work out. Assuming that you do when you get it together, you are richer and more wise in that area than anyone else is, but it's a struggle anyway, so let me know.
GA: Does the point of fortune have anything to do with the fact that it's in the same house as Saturn?
LB: It's not a conjunct. It would make a difference if it was conjunct. There's no conjunct.
GA: So that you want to say--

LB: There's [unintelligible 00:16:37] after Saturn but [unintelligible 00:16:39] I'll mention it now, in case I forget it. Your Saturn is a retrograde.
GA: I see.
LB: A retrograde Saturn. One of the things that means is that, in some ways, you don't have a real strong sense of boundaries. This is where I end. Real sense of, this is who I am in the world, and this is where I'm going. It's self-limitation in a way that gives you strength. In a way, it's both a plus and a minus. It's a plus in that it makes it easier for you to reach out beyond that. It makes it harder in that it's sometimes very hard for you to get a handle on where you end, where other people begin, and where your responsibility to other people ends. Also, in terms of psychic stuff, it means that you need to consciously develop psychic protection because the world rushes in when you align.
GA: It does.
LB: You don't have that automatic stopping point with it, and you can get a little overwhelmed because you don't filter it out. Everything just comes in and hits you so fast.
GA: Mirtha's the same way.
LB: Yes. Which is good in terms of the way you seem to be setting up your life now, when you spend a lot of time alone and you do your work. It's like the perfect way to deal with that kind of way.
GA: [chuckles] It's taken me all my lifetime. It's taken me all these years.
LB: It's like perfect. You have to make your own space, find your own path, and guard it in some ways. You got to cherish it to the point where you don't let the whole world flood in on you, overwhelm you all the time. It's particularly psychic, other people's psychic energies that are overloading their circles.
GA: So true.

LB: It's like I'm lost and [unintelligible 00:18:43] The other part of this conjunction here it is Neptune, Mars, which is a healing aspect.
GA: Oh, yes? I didn't know that.
LB: Physical healing, "laying on of hands" kinds of stuff, so that in some ways, part of the expression or part of the way that you get in touch with that particular kind of psychic stuff is very physical. Mars is a very physical energy, kind of. That's what it's about. How you express yourself physically in your world. So either, healing, laying on of hands stuff, or just that you get that psychic insights into other people or the world or whatever will be felt by you on a very physical level, and you will feel it in your body. As opposed to just singing or seeing images or whatever, you will feel it.
GA: Your body feels everything. It takes it on. Whenever I got into fights with people, I would want to throw up. That kind of thing. I did get into psychic healing where there is some touching.
LB: We've got great stuff for doing stuff, I mean between that aspect and [unintelligible 00:20:06] sixth house, and there is a real potential to know what is going wrong with people physically especially.

GA: I always wanted to
LB: [unintelligible 00:20:17]
GA: -to do it through my writing. I don't know if that--
LB: Sure, the last time that we [unintelligible 00:20:26]. All right, yes. It's also, I think might be good that somethings are into [unintelligible 00:20:41]. It's some sort of physical discipline or martial art, massage, anything.
GA: I've taken massage classes, but I do need to take some martial arts.
LB: It will be real good training for you [unintelligible 00:21:05].
GA: Maybe when I get to New York I can do that.
LB: I think it will be good. [coughs]
GA: Do you want some water?
LB: Yes. I think it will be good in terms of do you want to get more in touch with your physical side, the psychic energy stuff. I think doing it through some sort of physical discipline is a good choice.

GA: I need to do that because I got in touch with my body, I was talking to Meg, because of having had the problems with my sexuality. The body just being very ill.
LB: When did that happen?
GA: I started having a period when I was three months old, so it's all my life. When I was little we had to do farmwork and I always hated it because it was like being an animal [unintelligible 00:22:03] labor. I was willing to do head stuff and not in an office where there's air condition, so that the body was like- I always felt like the body was a servant rather than a [inaudible 00:22:20]. Christianity shaping the condition of this event, the flesh and the spirit and how a woman is flesh and, therefore, inferior.
LB: The only way to escape that is what you call a female [unintelligible 00:22:39]. When was the operation?
GA: It was in March 20th, 1979. No, [unintelligible 00:22:56], it will be two years this March. Was it '80?

LB: I was wondering, we need to look at the aspect [inaudible 00:23:14]. Anyway, [unintelligible 00:23:24] 10 pounds, having all that stuff is that it's a lot of ambition. Not in the sense of wanting to be rich and famous but in the sense of wanting to make an effect on the world.
GA: Oh, yes, I've always felt very strongly.
LB: Something else like not an important part of your life, that's real important to you. It's much more important to you than it is to a lot of people. It's a sense of, you will not be happy with yourself to just sit or lay back and let things happen to you. Some sense of wanting to make a difference. We wanted to make a real effect on some community of some sort.
It's interesting because all the clients that fall in there and is the sun which is a sense of yourself and what you want to be doing in the world. There is Neptune, there is Venus, and there is Mars. Neptune is like aesthetics and love of beauty and harmony and all that. Neptune is the psychic stuff and Mars is just like physical energy. It seems my immediate take on that is the stuff that you-- It kind of affect you and your make on the world is real positive.
GA: Oh, yes.
LB: It's not manipulative, wanting to be a hard shift kind of thing. It's much more wanting-- You know, you feel what's inside of you and you want to put that out there, it's more like wanting to give something to the world as opposed to wanting the world to do something to you.
GA: You know that [unintelligible 00:25:17] comes up from you a lot is the gentle penetration of the wind which is-- It's not like making a big splash, it's just a steady gradual, continuous effect.
LB: Yes. [unintelligible 00:25:43] to ask us [inaudible 00:25:43] [crosstalk]
GA: [unintelligible 00:25:45]

LB: I think of Venus or Mercury in your own [unintelligible 00:25:52] [pause 00:25:56]
GA: You might have stayed in that path that I gave you.
LB: [inaudible 00:26:12] Yes, I did. [unintelligible 00:26:15]. [pause 00:26:16] I mean that's [unintelligible 00:26:38] about your Mercury.
GA: [inaudible 00:26:41]
[pause 00:26:42]
LB: [inaudible 00:26:55]
GA: You also said something on [unintelligible 00:27:09] 11th house.
LB: Right, yes, I was going to say [inaudible 00:27:13] wrong position.
GA: Oh, yes.
LB: [unintelligible 00:27:26]. Okay, Mercury in 11th house is-- Mercury is certainly the way that you-- Let's say you process informations [unintelligible 00:27:45], you think how almost everyone has their own particular grid that you take the [unintelligible 00:27:53] instrument that you express yourself out there to. That's like your Mercury. Just even on how you put information together. It's interesting because if you need to do chart comparisons. People who have Mercury square to each other have a really hard time communicating [unintelligible 00:28:14]. It's interesting.
GA: Really?
LB: Yes, I want to have that with my lover actually. It's very funny, we'll try. Just even talking intellectually about stuff.
GA: I see.
LB: We misunderstand each other, we're going for hours arguing, and when you get to the end. We realize that we completely misunderstood what the other person has said. We'll be arguing politics and when we get to the end of the conversation we realize we were saying the same thing from the beginning. That kind of miscommunication happens a lot when a Mercury is [unintelligible 00:28:43]. People who have Mercury that are conjunct or tied to each other have a really easy time. These are the kind of people that you see up online talking to and just the ideas just go like this.
GA: Yes.

LB: It sounds interesting. Anyway, [unintelligible 00:28:59] 11th houses. A lot of the stuff that you're intellectually interested in and that you want to think and talk about and put together has to do with a very broad sense of humanity. Or of the people of the world kind of stuff, and a real visionary sense in terms of that. [unintelligible 00:29:27]. [laughter]
A lot of that connectivity and groups, and group process and people being able to work together. Yes, visionary stuff in terms of that. All sort of Aquarius, Uranus, have little revolutionary things in your own and that sort of-- It's also the sort of intellectual. There's a part of you that is very tied into occasionally flipping people out because they need to hear things.
GA: [laughs] Shock again.
LB: What would people need to hear, at the moment because they don't want to deal with, but they really need to [unintelligible 00:30:09].
GA: I call it, shocking them shitless.
LB: Right, and you're good at it.
GA: I don't do it very often, but I do it and then people get scared of me, like mean stuff. [chuckles]
LB: It sounds like the erroneous thing of exploding, a little explosion in somebody's consciousness, and that's why you'd go after doing that.
GA: Yes. I do. I love doing that.

LB: The other thing, at the same time though because I'm Libra, the sense of beauty is very much connected to the way that you think and also the way that you speak and the way that you write is the aesthetic sense. Is a love of language and the beauty of ideas and that kind of stuff is all really important to you. The way that you think and the way that you put ideas together has an aesthetic tinge to it altogether. You're not into information for its own sake so much as the beauty of different ways of thinking and of speaking.
GA: I'm into rhythm and pulse and image, and the form.
LB: The opposition to the moon. I really have to look that one up because I have some vague sense of it but not real clear, it's an important aspect of your chart.
GA: Especially as a Libra and Mars are also opposite.
LB: Usually, oppositions are opposite signs, the square and usually the squares. Most of the aspects that fall around the signs. The signs are square and the trines are in the two planets are in signs that are trine to each other. Sometimes it's not and there's-- Let me show you this. [unintelligible 00:32:09] [silence] These are not [unintelligible 00:32:20]

GA: Which is not conjunct?
LB: Neptune.
GA: Okay. This is Neptune
LB: Oh, not Neptune. I'm sorry, Venus [inaudible 00:32:38]
GA: A friend of mine did that. I don't know how accurate that is.
LB: This is how you draw the [unintelligible 00:32:48] squares on this [unintelligible 00:32:50]. One thing that immediately strikes me in terms of this particular opposition is there's a tension between all the stuff or the Mercury stuff I was just talking about in your moon and areas, which is very impulsive, emotional stuff. You feel something and you feel it now and you tend to say it right out there and just act very fast. That is sometimes a little bit at war with your [crosstalk] the lever, which is very into harmony and your sense of beauty and harmony and balance and all that stuff. Is a little bit at war with the emotional nature, which jumps right into everything.
This is what I think right now, and this is what's true right now, and who cares if it balances out anything and this is, whatever. There's little tension between those two. Also, that sometimes your immediate emotional reactions to things can cloud your intellectual clarity. You sometimes have to wait a little bit until the smoke clears before you can really get clear on what you think about anything [inaudible 00:34:44]
GA: That happens. That's so true.
LB: [unintelligible 00:34:49] you're romantic.
GA: I'm a romantic?
LB: Yes.
GA: Yay. Well, shit.
LB: Sorry. It's true.

GA: But also that's the house of creativity.
LB: Yes, it's great. [unintelligible 00:35:04] It also tends to mean that that's wanting to create and self-expression stuff is something that you started with real early on and from childhood, there's that.
GA: Yes, I started telling my sister stories so she would let me sleep, to shut her up. I would tell her one story then she would want to-- Oh, the thing was that if I didn't tell her a story, she would tell my mom that I was reading in bed with a flashlight. I would read to three or four, five o'clock in the morning.
LB: [laughs] That's funny.
GA: Then I started making up things very early.

LB: That's good. The moon interests me a lot. It's the strongest planet in my chart, the sun and the moon. They're always strong in my chart. They're super strong because it's sun in Leo which is always life and six planets of Leo and then there's the moon in Pisces, single off in the planet. The moon really fascinates me in terms of, I really think it has a whole lot to do with childhood and with patterns established in childhood. A lot to do with survival mechanisms that get set up in childhood in terms of how you learn to relate, how you learn to adapt yourself to the world because it's very much about this half-conscious way of adapting to new stuff.
GA: I wish I could get rid of some of the survival mechanisms.
LB: Yours are very fast. You have to react instantly and it has a lot-- Your style of how you learn to get by in the world when you were young, it's sometimes real and applicable when you're older, so it can be a problem. It's also real interesting because how people react to dangerous or very upsetting traumatic situations, they fall back on their moon instantly. Your sun is very much more your ego and your sense of self and it doesn't really get rolling until you're older. People are much more like their moons when you're kids. You grow into your sun and your ascendant more when you have some sort of control over your life and you can start acting on your own sense of self. Before that it's much more, you have no power and you're in a position of reacting to the world and adapting to the world. The moon is much stronger.
GA: I'm much better in crises.
LB: It's a great one for crises. I have a terrible moon for crisis. Well, it depends. If it's the kind of thing where somebody else is in trouble, I'm great because it's empathy, but I've been in a situation where people-- I had a guy back me into the corner and be ready to rape me and I'm sitting there empathizing, it's like, "You can be useless." If somebody else is in trouble and fine, I'm in trouble. I would [inaudible 00:38:02] but it's interesting. I always fascinated watching people who I know really well, and so I've seen them go through like real heavy, "All right, now we have to deal with something real fast." It's like you just see them absolutely clear. You would be real fast right on there. Your only problem's you might react too fast to things without thinking. There wouldn't be any time lag and you wouldn't get thrown. You could like get right into it and deal with [inaudible 00:38:36]. It's a real different chart [inaudible 00:38:52]
GA: Oh, yes.
LB: Virgo, Scorpio [inaudible 00:38:54]
GA: Woo, heavy. [laughs]

LB: She has such a heavy chart. It's a wonderful chart. [inaudible 00:39:02] Anyway, the other thing about the moon childhood stuff, this part of the survival stuff that you developed in childhood where your style of dealing with emotional stuff in childhood was real fast. What do I want in this situation? And very much acting out of, a very immediate and very fast sense of self and that's the way that you got by.
GA: Where's the stuff? Sometimes I tend to hide things. I tend to hide my emotions when I don't vocalize them right away, very fast. I do the opposite. I hide them.
LB: That probably has more to do with the [unintelligible 00:39:52] and the aspects to probably [unintelligible 00:39:59] Although this is the expression, the emotions, and the verbal expression, is like they don't go smooth together. That's another thing about a difficult aspect, that can be a really positive thing in terms of writing. In terms of there's a need to learn how to do that, and, therefore, you would cultivate that more than someone else would.
GA: Right. There's a value in having tensions in the writing, of there being oppositions and there being a struggle between the elements. Otherwise, the thing doesn't have any vitality. You've got to do it in such a way that you can bring it off. [pause 00:40:44] [background noise]

LB: There's a wonderful astrology book on Saturn. There's very few astrology books that I would say are wonderful. It's called Saturn. It's by a woman named Liz Greene.
GA: I should get that.
LB: The whole book is about Saturn. It's very, very good. I had a copy, I should [unintelligible 00:41:15] copy. It's a terrific book.
GA: I'd like to get a copy.
LB: There's also a really nice little book called-- It's weird because it's in two sections, and one of the sections, it's just boring and terrible and glocky. The other section is really nice. I think it's just called The Four Elements, and it's by Steven O'Reilly.
GA: I think I've seen them.
LB: It's got one of the nicest descriptions of the elements I've ever seen. A really nice little thing on the planets too.
GA: I might even have that.
LB: It's real basic, but it's one of the best basic books I own. I go back to it all the time, it's wonderful.
GA: I have a lot of Dane Rudhyar.
LB: I like some of his stuff, but I don't like others.
GA: Well, sometimes he gets a little carried away with his theory and philosophy. Very abstract in some ways.
LB: It's like, "Yo, what does this mean about anybody?" It's much more like, he gets so off in the cosmic thing, it gets very hard to get any sense of what this could possibly mean in somebody's life.
GA: I see.
LB: Some of his stuff is really funny.
GA: Then the other thing I have is this [unintelligible 00:42:29] or something like that?
LB: No, no, no.
GA: [crosstalk] I don't know how good those books are.
LB: I don't think they're very good, because they're not specific enough.

GA: [unintelligible 00:42:45]
LB: That's what I think it is [unintelligible 00:42:48] [silence]
LB: [unintelligible 00:42:59] You can't help but attract the attention of the opposite sex. [crosstalk]
GA: Oh, shit. They're sexist. What about the houses that are empty? Does that mean that I don't need any help in them?
LB: Well, it means they're less emphasized. The houses that are very full or that have a lot of things going on in them or a lot of very important planets in them are much more going to be the things that you need to work on and deal with.
GA: I see.

LB: I think this is valid, a lot of the way that people look at charts is like everything that's in your chart are all these different potentials. It's very much you look at the chart in terms of the things, the potentials you have to work with, and the stuff that you're supposed to be doing this time around.
GA: Oh, I see.
LB: A lot of people go into a real heavy karmic thing with that in terms of you choose your chart, which I'm [unintelligible 00:44:05] about because the politics of that can get decidedly weird.
GA: I always wondered, I have two here. Well, actually, there's one here if you don't count that. One, and two there, four there, one here, and one here, and one here. You don't count the nodes, right?
LB: We don't count them as the nodes.
GA: So that the heavy ones are the eighth house, the tenth house?
LB: The seventh, any place you're sounding false is going to be a little heavy.
GA: Would this be heavier than that, then?
LB: Yes, it is. The most intense house in your chart is your tenth house without a doubt. That's all right. That's also a good one. That's the only one that I'm not just drawing into.
GA: What does it mean, Jupiter in my eighth house? [silence]

Lisa Biow: Remind me of the [unintelligible 00:06:23] I'll teach you after this because it's not hard. You need to get one for the year of your birth or get one that--They have like 10-year ones. Anyway, go to [unintelligible] and find out what you can find. If you can get one just for that year it would be nice but it might be hard.
Gloria Anzaldúa: The year of my birth?
LB: Yes. The year of your birth will do it. Because on that method of progression during the course of your whole lifetime, you won't get much past Capricorn. Your Sun won't progress past here. There are different sorts of methods of progression. I don't work with progressions all that much altogether but that's the most standard one. Your moon would be-- Let's see, your moon in 43 would be circled down once and 28. Then 12, 12 days would be about-- I don't know if I can figure this out on my head, probably in Libra.
Yes, Libra maybe is working. I need to look it up. Almost maybe somewhere around there, would've circled around all the way around once and then be a little less than halfway through, et cetera.
GA: That's so interesting. I'm here now and here I thought I'd just gone into my seventh house. [laughs]

LB: I mean there probably are other modes of-- Your moon is over here. Your moon in the air is-- Wait a second, my air is over here and once would be about here.
GA: It's because it's static. If we had things that we could turn around--
LB: I know. People do charts like that sometimes where they have different pointers around. They do it for progressions that they have three different pieces of paper that are circles and there's one of your natal charts and then the transits and your progressions. They're moving them around and then they'll move it a little bit longer to see where you're going to be a year from now in relation to this and that and it's interesting. There are people who actually do that. Where am I at? Oh yes, you're around a square. Let me look at my notes on this for one second. One of the things that goes on with all the Eros connections, and in your case, I think it works mostly pretty well for you. It is all trines and it's like you can get a little lazy in this respect. Trines can make for a lot of laziness.
GA: Yes, that's one of my qualities.
LB: I'm not sure I have that luxury. [laughter] I'm not all square. If you get lazy, you just stay in the same place. In your chart, it generally works fairly well. It's not like you mess yourself up with your Eros. You have absolutely no tolerance for boredom or for conservatism in the strict sense of the people who are interested in making it like they think it was three days ago. You're always moving forward, very inventive, with no respect for authority [chuckles] whatsoever, or convention, or--
If somebody tells you you should do things because this is the way they are done, this is absolute useless information to you, and you're very likely to do exactly the opposite exactly for that reason. It's the sense of--
GA: Reacting?
LB: Not in a bad way necessarily, but if you wanted to break through whatever structures are around you, you don't have any use for that, for social convention, in that sense. It really doesn't.
GA: In friendships too. I like to shake them up.
LB: Oh, yes, it's a real shake-them-up energy. Aquarians are like this in general because they're ruled by that planet, but Aquarians always have this thing, they love to say things that are going to make everybody's jaw drop. They figure it's good for everybody to have their ideas shaken up periodically, and you have that also, of the sense of always wanting to figure out the thing that no one has thought of, that's going to--People getting their set images of the world, or set ways of thinking or whatever, you're the person who's always looking for the little something that's going to shift the way everything looks, that's going to turn the world upside down. Not for yourself, but for other people also. That's one of the services you perform for your friends; shaking up their worldview periodically, which is nice.

GA: Sometimes they don't like this. [laughter]
LB: Right, it could be a problem with Tauruses in particular, watch out for that. There's lots of ideas, lots of new ideas all the time and enthusiasm for everything, and there's this real quest for new stuff. Not just for newness in itself, which is a Gemini thing, just there's this sense of wanting to unhinge. It's an intellectual thing. Unhinge the way people are looking at the world, or the way that you're looking at the world.
GA: I see.
LB: It's nice because you're really, in some sense, very comfortable with that energy. A lot of people have a lot of problems with that. You're fairly comfortable with it, and there is--There's some counterbalancing thing with your Saturn and Gemini. There's a particular intellectual rigidity that you've had to fight in yourself, but on some levels, you're very much looking for the thing that turns it all upside down. The one problem with the amount of strength is that you can be impatient, and impulsive, and need to channel those flashes sometimes, or that will to break it all up and start all over. Because occasionally, you can get into trouble with that if you don't stick around long enough to find out what's useful in some particular way of looking at something. You're immediately wanting to shake it all off and start all over, which can be a problem. I would worry about it more if it was square. I think it works pretty well for you for the most part, but there is occasionally a need for moderation. It's also, it being this very electrical explosive-- Not explosive, it's not quite the word, but--
GA: Intense?
LB: Very intense, but fast, intense. It's like flashes. Lightning or electricity is the best image I can think of.
GA: I love lightning. Always [unintelligible 00:13:29].

LB: What was I going to say? Oh, you can short circuit periodically. That's all. It's another one of those stress yourself out of line, but it's really good that you're doing stuff like meditation or whatever, because there is this-- It can make you high strung after a while if you thrive on that explosive intellectual stuff to the point where you can burn. You can get yourself very frazzled if you're forever looking for the new thing to shake it all up, and you can just get real tired doing it.
GA: I was an insomniac for a long time.
LB: That's perfect. Yes, because Uranus transits, one of the major signs of Uranus transits is insomnia, when people are having real transits--
GA: Wow.
LB: I didn't even know this, when I had my chart done, I was having some strange Uranus transits at the time, and she said-- I had not said a word to her, but she said, "Having trouble sleeping lately?" She blew my mind. For the first time in five years, really having very heavy duty insomnia, and it was that. That and skin things. Like really strange little skin rashes is another Uranus transits thing. It's very hyper. It could be a little jittery when you get a little too much of it. Anyway, so there's that.

LB: Uranus is in the sixth house and there's all these [unintelligible 00:15:00] to your little threesome up here, which means that in some way, your work and what you see as your service to the world, again, is the sixth house thing. The tenth house is not so much service to the world, it's wanting to give something to the world like in a more grandiose sense. It's the building of structures in some way.
The sixth house is the plain, hardworking service on a very-- Your sense of that is--and this is part of your why you can't do a nine-to-five job thing, someone with Saturn-- No, that's not even [unintelligible 00:15:33] Saturn in sixth house. A messed up Saturn. With a different kind of placement in the sixth house. We'll say Sun in the sixth house is the person who can handle the nine-to-five job a lot better. You've got Uranus in the sixth house. It's a strong planet, so there is this real sense of wanting to do service, but your way of doing it is always going to be eccentric, and it's not going to be a regular, everyday whatever. It's going to be a much more impulsive visionary. Your brand of service is Uranian. You want to offer your visions to the world. That's your service. You'll never be able to deal with a kind of job that's too routine at all. You just can't cope with it. It's terrible.
GA: No, it kills me. It kills me.
LB: You shouldn't make yourself try. You should never do it unless it's like that or starving to death because it's terrible for you.
GA: I've been managing to survive on my writing, my gigs, and teaching.
LB: Yes, that's the perfect way for you to work. That's not--
GA: It's sporadic.
LB: It would drive me a little nuts, I think, but for you, I think it's really good.

GA: Being ruled by Taurus, how does that affect the sixth house?
LB: It's not ruled by Taurus. It's ruled by Virgo. This is the Virgo house.
GA: Okay, so this has nothing to do with--
LB: Oh, yes, I see your Taurus on the-- Yes. Is it intercepted? No. That affects it a little. That gives a little more solidity to your sixth house stuff, but not that much.
GA: Not that much?
LB: No, because the planet is so strong and it's got its own dynamic there. It overshadows your cusp a little, I think.
GA: A lot of it is intellectual because of the Gemini.
LB: The Gemini and Uranus itself is a pretty intellectual planet. It's not linear thought, but it's intellectual. It's the flash of whatever.
GA: The mind.
LB: It's very much the mind, but it's not like this, and then this, and then this, and this. It's like--
GA: Could it be in the intuitive level of the mind?
LB: Yes, for sure, exactly. You know what, it reminds me of-- Like I used to say, this thing with-- Because I have a very strong Uranus on my chart. It's exactly on this line, the [unintelligible 00:18:02].
GA: [unintelligible 00:18:02].

LB: Exactly. It's like this very internal thing. I'm not even aware of it, but it's very much rooted in me, this Uranian energy. It's also conjunct my Venus. I would do things like solve a math problem in my head in about 10 seconds that if I was to sit down and try and figure out the answer to, it would take me four hours. I even did that with astrology a lot, of like, "I'll figure something out." I'll have just an insight, a flash of, "Oh, this is X," and I'll say that, and then I'll get panicked about it, because I have no excuse for that answer. Then I'll go back and I'll track that, and I'll come out with the same answer four hours later, but that's very fast, non-linear intellectual stuff. Yes, it's [unintelligible 00:18:53].
GA: I have that with people. Like I'll see people, and I'll put two and two together, but in a way that is not like addition, you know?
LB: It's interesting because lots of times, you'll see like one or the other of the outer planets, which are the ones that have to do with psychic stuff. With you, you've got both-- Your Pluto isn't all that strong in the chart, but you have both the Neptune and the Uranus are very strong, very focal, important planets so that your psychic stuff is coming in two different-- There's two different major sources of it. One of them is that real oceanic, Neptuneian, empathic connection, which is very non-intellectual in any of the traditional senses of intellectual. It's totally feeling a spiritual non--It's very little to do with your mind than any traditional-- Or it's totally right brain kind of mind, if anything. It's connected with the mind at all. It's all the right side. Uranus is more of a traditional intellectual kind of thing, but it doesn't work linearly at all. It's not that kind of thing, it's a flash. Those are two very different kinds of spiritual energy.
GA: I have this problem that I always want to verify these flashes. It slows them down. I should trust them.
LB: Although for you, there's some value to that. You should trust them, but there's also a thing of-- Well, I'll get to that when I get to your notes, of real education and grounding of some of your psychic stuff is really important. That's not a substitute for trusting the psychic stuff. It's like the two of them should go together, of that sort of training and education, and then just doing it. They work together very well. It's not like you should play them off each other. Either you know it or you have this insight into it. It's the two of them work together. [unintelligible 00:21:01]
GA: I see.

LB: That one's that. Now where else am I? [unintelligible 00:21:16] that's so nice. Meg has [unintelligible 00:21:20].
GA: So does me.
LB: Yes, right. In the last couple years, I had never known anyone with-- Oh, that's actually Frankie [unintelligible 00:21:30]. I don't even know [unintelligible 00:21:35] it's some more of your quickness than your-- It's more visionary stuff in a particular way. It's like your ascendant-- Somebody described to me once I thought was nice, if you think of your Sun [unintelligible 00:21:55] move to some extent, but especially your Sun as being the contents of a bottle, that ascending is the neck and its particular channeling of your Sun.
It's like the Sun is the basic energy and it's like your ascending is almost like your style of expressing that, or your preferred style of expressing it. If you had your way, this is how you would go about expressing your Sun. It's not so much an internal part of your personality. It's much more your style. It has very much to do with action in the world.
GA: I like that analogy of the bottle.
LB: I think it works. See, it's not all that much different for the rest of your chart if you've got a lot of fire, air, and stuff. Anyway, in Meg it's very obvious because the rest of her-- She's a Capricorn, and a lot of the playfulness that would never be there usually in a Capricorn is the [unintelligible 00:22:51]. With you, it's not that different from the other elements in your chart. There's a particular fastness to it. There's also a real concern within quality of ethics or value systems having a lot to do with how you want to express yourself. That's some focus and what you want to be doing in the world. There's a real sense of tie everything that's going on into your belief system. You don't want things scattered all over the place.
GA: I don't.

LB: There's a real sense of wanting to fit it into how you see the world as a whole or how you feel like the world should be as a whole. That becomes a crucial part. First, I'll talk about your Saturn and I'll talk about your T Square Sun. [unintelligible 00:23:59] in your notes about the placement of your moon space.
Your Saturn in the seventh. Saturn is always a heavy-- It's also the teacher. I think there's this really wonderful book on Saturn, by the way, if you want a really nice astrology book. Have you ever seen this book, which is called Saturn? It's by a woman named Liz Green.
GA: Yes. I've seen it. I should read that.
LB: It's excellent. It's really excellent. Anyway, Saturn is the teacher and it's like a lot teaching through pain. The thing we're talking about, this is a lot-- That's what Saturn is about a lot. It's teaching through restriction of-- It depends a lot on the aspects to it and whatever, but to some extent always Saturn is a lot about where the blockages are, where you hold back. Saturn is also about how you define yourself, in a way that to some extent is very necessary to survive in the world and to some extent becomes a limit, especially when you're starting to get into spiritual stuff. There's a lot of stuff of getting past Saturn and undoing your-- It's like Sun and Saturn are like two different facets of ego in a way.
Sun is the sense of the self-expressive. It's the [unintelligible 00:25:36] sort of expansive, the heart and all that of that sort of very ego-centric but in a generous kind of a way, of your rootedness in yourself and your sense of purpose and all that stuff. Saturn is your ego in the sense of how you define your limitations of, "This is what I am," as opposed to something else. It's like you define yourself in a negative kind of a way, is Saturn, and it's a lot about structure and crystallization. It's like people have problems with Saturn have arthritis a lot and things like that. Just this real structure, rigidity thing.
GA: Well, had a little bit of being in here, but it's gone now.
LB: Good. Unless you're working with your Saturn [unintelligible 00:26:20]. [laughs] It's like the other part of ego in a way of like, you define yourself by defining what you're not or where your restrictions are or whatever. It's blockages. Where you stopped yourself.

GA: I stopped myself in relationships or in love ?
LB: There's a real sense. It's a place of a lot of learning because in some way, wherever Saturn is, this is something that doesn't come easy. Therefore you have a tremendous opportunity to learn about, but it's very hard. Saturn in the seventh is-- The thing of long term-- Well, traditionally it's marriage, but the sense of the perfect other or there's some real sense of really wanting the perfect other, or the person who is your compliment and is your lifelong companion or whatever. There's a real yearning for that and it doesn't come very easily at all.
I don't know, there's a lot of things. First of all, there's really wanting that and also being afraid of it. Usually, wherever you have Saturn, you can go in one of a couple different directions with it. It's all like, there's a blockage and you can scatter in one of two ways. You can either get into a thing of you're completely obsessed with the relationships or you get into a thing of you're fiercely independent and you don't need a relationship.
GA: I do both. [laughs]
LB: There's a real thing of being incredibly aware of your own need for a relationship and vulnerability and feeling like you're incredibly needy or all this stuff. On the other hand, there's this real thing about total self-sufficiency.
GA: I have that, exactly.

LB: Let me detour for a second. Because I remember I mentioned before, your Saturn was retrograde. When Saturn is retrograde, a lot of the structure-- That thing about structure and protecting yourself from the world and defining yourself in relationship to the world in terms of your limitations of some rigid idea of who you are or whatever. When you've sat on retrograde, to some extent, you don't do that in the usual way. You don't set your limits, you don't put barriers around yourself in the way that most people do.
It's another one of these things of you don't have a lot of psychic defenses. There's a sense of you take in stuff very easily. You don't have your little barricade against the world. If anything, the way it works, especially when you're younger, I think is you barricade yourself from your own self-conscious, but you don't barricade yourself from the world. It's like the defenses are internal. It's like it all gets turned inside of you, so that you are defending yourself against yourself as opposed to defending yourself against other people. I think it's probably particularly hard in childhood.
GA: This is because--
LB: You can have a childhood in which you could be incredibly rebellious, but nonetheless, you take it in, in some very profound way of like, you can be really-
GA: This is a--
LB: A little battered by the world.
GA: Is this the way it's always going to be or only when Saturn is retrograde?
LB: Wait the way it's always going to be for you or the way it always is with Saturn? This is your natal placement. To some extent, that's a constant for you. The thing to do with it is to learn--
GA: That's good though.
LB: Yes, it is good in a lot of ways. Oh, there's one particular kind of barrier that you don't have to get through that a lot of people have. On the other hand, it's caused you a certain amount of pain if you're not defended against the world in that way.
GA: I see.
LB: That also means that you don't have to fight so hard to knock down the--You haven't gotten rigid in your definition of yourself in the world that most people have that then they have to bat down if they're ever going to go beyond that. [END OF AUDIO]

Lisa Biow: [unintelligible 00:00:01] like I never did it before. Just in terms of the very basic, general things about the chart, you're very on the air and fire. A little bit on earth, which is a good thing [laughs] in a chart like this. There's a lot of things about earth--Virgo in particular, and Virgo energy in particular, is very important, it's very crucial to you. There's this whole thing about discipline and ritual, very-
Gloria Anazaldúa: Sí.
LB: -sort of regular setting up rituals for yourself that help you channel your energy is a very critical thing in your life.
GA: It is [crosstalking].
LB: It's part of your path, basically. We'll get into that when I talk about your North node.
GA: OK.
LB: Anyway, but basically, aside from that Virgo stuff going on, it's mostly air and fire, which is very self-expressive. Self-expression in the sense of there's a real need to put yourself out there in some way. You hate feelings of restriction.
GA: Oh yeah.
LB: The energy is very much going out, wants to go out all the time. Whereas the earth and water are much more self-contained, sort of gathering in energy.
GA: Any kind of limitations on me, I can't stand it.
LB: Yes, well, there's a lot of stuff in here about how you could never do a nine-to-five job if your life depended on it. It's just not in the cards.
GA: I know, I've done it, but I can't--I just can't! [laughs]
LB: When I was looking up stuff in your chart, it was funny, there's about four different things in it say forget the nine-to-five jobs circuit. Everything in your chart says, "No way." It's also a particular kind of playfulness to both those, more so than the other ones. Earth and water tend to be a little more somber and a little more-- Everything is gathered in. Can't remember the difference between centripetal and centrifugal, but the one that goes out is air and fire, and the one that sort of gathers in is earth and water, and you're heavy on air and fire. It's good that you have that earth in there, because otherwise you'd be a little too unfocused.

GA: I'd be [laughs] spaced out.
LB: It's not so much spaced out, but just scattered. It's not like Pisces, that's real spaced out. It's sort of running in so many directions at once that you don't know what you're doing anymore. A tendency to really exhaust yourself also, because you have so much energy and you have so much you want to do all the time that could get going off in too many directions.
GA: Yes, I always want to do everything.
LB: Yes, well, there's a lot of stuff about that.
GA: According to the sidereal astrology, I'm a Virgo, not a Libra.
LB: Oh, yes?
GA: [laughs]

LB: I can never quite figure out what I think about this stuff, because I'd be a Cancer, and I really don't feel like a Cancer to myself. [unintelligible 00:03:06] I don't see you as much of a Virgo, either, although there's Virgo in your chart. Anyway. Also, you're very little fixed. It's mostly mutable, which is the Sag. Mutable or calm. There's two different ones. [unintelligible 00:03:29] that there's four different elements, then there's three different modes, they're called. There's cardinal, fixed and mutable. You're mostly cardinal and mutable. The only thing that's fixed in the entire chart is Pluto and Leo, and everybody born anywhere around us had Pluto and Leo. It's a generation thing, it's not very specific to you.
Which does mean that you have a tendency to have trouble sticking with things over the long haul, sometimes. On the other hand, it means that you don't tend to get real rigid around things. You have lots of initiative. The initiative is the cardinal, and that's the real-- The people who always start things off usually have a cardinal [unintelligible 00:04:20] within whatever element it falls in, its the beginning of that. It's sort of like the springtime of that particular element or the beginnings of figuring out what that stuff means. With you it's Ares, cardinal fire.
GA: Yes, I've got about six books that I'm working on. [laughs]
LB: Yes. They always have great ideas and tons of initiative and just go out there and they'll start anything, and they're very fearless, usually about going out there and doing it, but then they get bored.
GA: That's why I have [unintelligible 00:04:52] The novel, I started writing that in '74, and I'm still working on it. That's almost 10 years.
LB: Libra has that also, sort of initiative. It's in a different sphere, it's much more in social stuff. You make connections with people very easily, and you'll do that. Then you have a fair amount of emphasis on mutable with the Virgo. You have the Venus in Virgo and your midheaven in Virgo and Sag rising. The mutable is distributive. It's wanting to make the connections between everything, whichever element it's in.
While Sag, in particular, is a lot that way of making the connections between philosophical ideas. It's a lot more communication and sort of putting the stuff out there in a way. The cardinal is the initiation and then the fixed is the consolidating whatever that particular element is. Then you get to the mutable, which is spreading it around in the world. You're big on starting it and spreading it around the world, and you have a little bit trouble of just sort of [unintelligible 00:06:19] [crosstalk]--
GA: Yes, let somebody else finish it.
[laughter]

LB: [unintelligible 00:06:21] and sticking with it and that kind of stuff. That's the real basic, outlining system. All your planets are in one half, pretty much. This is more out-in-the-world focused, and this is much more of the introverted. Your moon is there, but a lot of, sort of your life is making connections with people. It's not about just purely probing your own psyche. It's a lot about putting it out there and honing structures in the world and making connections with people. Especially the 10th house thing, which will be good. There's more going in your 10th house than anywhere.
GA: The structures and stuff that I'm putting out, are they mental?
LB: Well, there's two things on that. There's all this 10 path stuff, and a lot of what you're putting out-- 10th house is-- In traditional astrology it's the house of the professional, meaning standing in community and that kind of stuff. In your case, it's more like a thing of making-- It's a lot about structures. It's the Capricorn house. It's the Saturn house, also. It's building structures in the world. It's a profession in the sense that you're building something. It's a real building house. There's some real need to do something in the world and to affect the world in some way. That's a real driving force, and your sun is there. Your sense of purpose, it's not enough for you to sort of be mountaintop figuring out, you know, whatever. There's something about needing to make some sort of-- To build something in the world. To build something that is useful to other people.
GA: I have this whole philosophy and this whole yoga, and this whole thing that I call El Mundo Zurdo which I want to present to the world, and I've been weaving it in and out of my autobiography, and the problem with the autobiography is all these connections that I want to make. [laughs]

LB: Yes, that makes sense. The ruler, in a way, of your 10th house is this Venus, which is right on. The midheaven is the cusp, or the the very beginning of the 10th house. It's sort of the focus point of all that stuff about how you-- It's interesting, because different people read midheaven in slightly different ways. The woman who did my chart last January has this thing about the midheaven. She thinks the midheaven as the most important place in the chart, much more important than the ascendant.
It's this particular kind of astrology [unintelligible 00:09:28] that I can't decide whether I agree with it or not. I can buy that to a certain extent, but she sees the midheaven as the symbol of where you fit, where you fall in the Earth or how you are related to the Earth as a planet and where you are in relation to this global community.
GA: Sort of like your destiny.
LB: Yes, but it's your location on this planet as opposed to just you as some sort of abstract. It's very where you are on the Earth, particularly. [unintelligible 00:09:55] as a point.
GA: That's very interesting.

LB: Yours, as well, it's in Virgo, and your Venus is right next to the midheaven. It's very close, one degree. That really colors how you think about all that. Your art, the making. It's art and it's a certain sort of looking for the beauty in whatever or looking for the harmony in whatever, and that the creation of beauty and of harmony and integration is absolutely crucial to how you see it. That's where you see your function in the world a lot, and that's the stuff you want to put out there. Sounds very--
GA: [unintelligible 00:10:36] You're right about the harmony.
LB: There's a real thing about balance. It's interesting, because Libra--There's all these connections back and forth. Your sun is in Libra, and the Venus, which is this real strong, absolutely focal planet in terms of all this stuff, is the ruler of Libra. Libra is a very social sign in some ways, and they are very into balance and they don't really like to fight and they don't like conflict a whole lot, but they're not wishy-washy at all. They're very feisty. They have a real strong sense of justice a lot of the time. They'd rather everything be in balance, but they can get just furious when somebody refuses to let that happen. Do you know what I mean? They can be really fierce fighters, and they would really rather not have to fight at all, but if it comes to that, you better watch out.
GA: I never get angry, but when I do people just run. [laughs] They don't want to be around.
LB: It's true. That's perfect Libra. They're very strong in a particular kind of way, but they'd rather everything be in harmony, but partly they'll fight for that. They'll fight for that to happen.

GA: If this is ruled by Mercury, does that mean that-- This is ruled by--
LB: Well, it's interesting because the midheaven is in Virgo, which is ruled by Mercury which is in Libra, which is ruled by Venus which is in Virgo. There's all this Venus, the Virgo, Libra and Venus, Mercury stuff keep circling back around each other here.
GA: That's very interesting.
LB: There's these two planets, the Venus and your Mercury, there's a name for that. See, when one planet is in a sign, there's a thing called the dispositions. Different planets are ruling over different planets depending on which sign is-- You do little chains all the way around the chart sometimes of the sun is in Sagittarius, which is ruled by Jupiter, which is in whatever, which is ruled by whatever. You get this little chain of things affecting each other that way. Yours, you've got your Venus and Mercury are mutual dispositors of each other. They're very connected that way. They're each in the other one's side, and then you have your 10th house, Libra in this house that is ruled by Mercury because Mercury is in your midheaven. They're very connected.

GA: Then did the Capricorn and the Saturn also affect this 10th house, right? How much is their effect?
LB: Well, it's sort of like the 10th house is to houses the way Saturn is to planets and the way Capricorn is to science. There's one real nice astrology book in which they have-- they just give the numbers to all the planets and all the houses and all the signs and they link up of the first house is the Aries house is ruled by Mars. The second house is the Taurus house is ruled by Venus. It's that quality to that house but it's not-- So it has the flavor of Capricorn and Saturn in the sense of both of those, Saturn is the planet of structure and of building structures, and Capricorn is the sign that is the most involved with that stuff. That's what the 10th house is about.
It's not like your 10 house is ruled by Capricorn. Your 10th house in particular is ruled by Virgo, because that's what's [unintelligible 00:14:25] or it's ruled by Mercury. [unintelligible 00:14:30] Anyway, the stuff in terms of putting stuff out there is very much connected with all this 10th house stuff, which I'll go into some more in a minute. Also, there's the Mercury in the 11th, which is your intellectual vision, and it's in the 11th house, which is community. It's the Aquarian house. It's community and a utopian vision of the ideal community of the future. It has a lot to do with your friendships and collectivity and however you identify your community, that's 11th house stuff.
GA: That's exactly right.

LB: There's a lot of stuff about your vision. Your intellectual vision is very much connected with that, and that's the issue that you're in some ways most intellectually interested in. That's the place that your communication is directed, is to this some vision of a community.
GA: Sí. Especially this past month when I've been doing a lot of meditating and a lot of affirmation is coming through, and I'm even getting some training in my sleep from the astroplanes. All this weird stuff is going on [laughs].
LB: Well, there's a lot of real strong visionary stuff in your chart, especially having this-- Well, let's go back to the 10th house thing. The sun conjunct Mars and Neptune thing is a very powerful little grouping of planets. Your sun essentially it's your ego, not in the sense they talk of in yoga of you need to get rid of your ego. It's not that. The sun's your sense of self in some very deep way.
GA: Is it the soul, the self?
LB: It's not even "the self," because your self is the whole chart. It's more like your conscious identity. It's more how you see yourself, how you see yourself very much in the world. It's a lot about will and sense of purpose and that kind of thing. Your moon is yourself also, but it's the less conscious, more emotional, reactive, emotional, less purposeful. The sun is like your sense of purpose. It's how you see yourself as an actor in the world. A lot to do with purpose and will [unintelligible 00:17:05] It's yourself. It's conscious identity. You need to be taking care of your sun stuff. If you're not taking care of your sun stuff you start feeling like you don't have any purpose in life.
GA: See, I get very--
LB: If you're not taking care of your moon stuff, you feel emotionally ungrounded, but it's a very different thing. It's stuff like you can feel very emotionally grounded and you're taking care of all your moon stuff or whatever, and feel totally listless in a way, because your sun is sometimes messed up at that [unintelligible 00:17:40] There's different aspects of yourself, but the conscious, identity purpose kind of thing is the sun.

GA: See how it's only three degrees away from Virgo.
LB: Well, except that the beginning of the sign is very strong in that sign.
GA: Ah, so it's not on the cusp?
LB: Well, it is, but the cusp-- Things get mushier at the end of a sign. If you have something that's 29 degrees, something or other, it's very much shading over into the next sign. If it's in the very beginning of a sign, it's very much that sign. If you're one or two degrees, something, it's very strongly that sign, but when you're in the very end of the one before it's starting to get mushy. It's like you're Neptune and Virgo is really hovering on Libra, but the sun is very strong in Libra. Actually there's this thing called decans, where they divide the sign up into three pieces, and the first one is the most that sign, in a way. The Libra Libras is the first 10 degrees, and then the second 10 degrees would be the next air sign along, which would be Aquarius. There's an Aquarian tinge to those Libras. Then the third one is the next one along, which is Geminis, Gemini-ish Libras, but you're the Libra Libra.

GA: The woman who did the gnostic circle, she does that with the [unintelligible 00:19:08]. She does that with a-- You know?
LB: Oh, woah.
GA: Yes. You're going to like this book.
LB: Oh, that's so [unintelligible 00:19:14] Anyway, okay. This conjunction here are those three planets. Sun conjunct Neptune in itself is-- actually [unintelligible 00:19:29]. All three outer planets are in some ways mystical, spiritual stuff to them, but in very different flavors. Neptune is the real oceanic, at-one-with-the-world, complete loss of ego, that kind of spirituality. I mean it's ocean. That's all I can think of is ocean, and this real sense of being very much at one with everything and peaceful and also very prone to-- It's also a planet of illusion and just being lost in stuff and drugs. People who have screwed up Neptunes are way into drugs. When there's problems with your Neptune, there's a real problem dealing with reality, altogether.
GA: A large part of my life is like that.
LB: Yes. It's a very hard aspect that way. You have a vision of how connected everything is and of how it should be that way and how everyone should be feeling that. The fact that the world as you have to live it day to day is so far from that is so horrible that there's a real tendency to just withdraw into yourself and build your own fantasy world, because there's this incredible--You have a sense of such empathy with all the stuff around you. There's all the violence or the whatever or the horrible stuff that's going on in the world. It's just too much to deal with alongside that feeling of connectedness with everything.
GA: I can remember as a child feeling like that. I had to grow a thick skin.

LB: Which is very hard for you. You've got all this stuff in here about problems with growing a thick skin. I imagine you're a whole lot better at it now, but definitely when you were a kid of just the thing of having almost no psychic defenses and just the world just completely flooding in on you all the time.
GA: Is that because of Neptune conjunct with sun?
LB: That's a lot because of Neptune. It's also because of your Saturn is retrograde, which is different, but it also has to do with not being very well defended against the world, psychically. Especially with sun conjunct Neptune. There really is this thing of a real strong, empathic connection with everything living around you.
GA: Like it hurt me when people were turning off the cigarettes on the grass. The grass is alive.
LB: Right, that kind of stuff. It could be really agonizing on some level to be that in tune with what's going on. This is the problem with people with strong Neptune things is you're so aware of everyone's pain or everyone's whatever that you can't deal with it. It's like having skin of parchment or something. You're feeling everything's pain and everybody's pain and everybody's whatever. Even good stuff can be completely overwhelming because you've got everybody's.
GA: Then I tend to go the opposite way, to become callous, just in self-protection. [laughs]
LB: You never really manage very well to be callous, I imagine. Probably callous by your standards is not callous by other people's standards. There's also, one of the things that people with that kind of stuff tend to do is withdraw into a real fantasy world. I have a moon in Pisces, a really strong moon in Pisces, which is similar stuff. It works in a different way than mine, because yours is much more connected with your sun, which means in some ways that you have a hard time getting a handle on who the hell you are.
Especially when you were a kid, I imagine, had a really hard time figuring out who you were and what you wanted to do in the world and what your sense of purpose was or what your own value was, even, because, first of all, it was really difficult for you to separate out yourself from everything else around. There wasn't a sense of you as a separate entity, because you felt so connected to everything. One of the things that happens a lot with the sun-Neptune stuff is real insecurity in a certain way. If you feel like you're unequipped to deal with the world. Everyone else seems to wander around not getting upset about the grass, and [unintelligible 00:24:01]
GA: Yes, I couldn't believe these people. I hope you have a pen, because I don't have any cartridges.
LB: Yes, I do. Let me turn this off [unintelligible 00:24:21]
[sound cut]

[Voicemail recording]
Speaker: The week of starting on Saturday, June 5th, I believe it is, whatever that Saturday is. We'll have to get together for dinner some night during that time. I would guess that it will be that Monday. I don't remember the date, should be-- My guess is that it'll be Monday, June 8th. I'll try to get in touch with you. If you don't hear from me, call the house or something so I can figure out where I can find you, or give me your office number, which I doubt I still have, and we'll work something out. Okay. Right now I am heading to a shopping center where I'm going to look around for some interiors.
If I don't find some interiors, I'm also looking for a pair of nylon bathing trunks, swim trunks, whatever you call them. I had a pair I bought maybe 20 years ago, that I still have, but they're finally getting unglued. From my standpoint, if you can get 100% nylon swim trunks, they dry out so fast. It's always a pain in the neck when you go for a swim and you come out and that damn things stay wet for a couple of hours. These things, you could come out and you'd be completely dry in 20 minutes. They wear like iron, which is great for sailing.
I've seen some in Sears, but the bastards never have any assortment. I see exactly the one I want in size small, which is hardly what I can use. I see lots of what I don't want in the size that I normally wear. Among my other things, including looking for interiors, I also check every Sears store I see to see if maybe they got the swim trunks I'm looking for. Anyway, enough of this garbage. Talk to you in a couple of weeks. That's all. Bye-bye.
[END OF AUDIO]

Amy: As soon as the warranty ends.
Cherrié Moraga: Oh great.
Amy: It's really good. Yes, yes, and I got it fixed once and the guy said oh well if it ever breaks again that's it, so of course it broke again. Okay, Cherrié, first I have to I guess warn you just because I'm on a super tight schedule today and I only have until 11:30 because I usually plan on a couple of hours. I like to leave a little leeway but there are all these emergencies that came up in my life today and I'm like-- and it's weird because the weirdness about not being able to [unintelligible 00:00:43] everything. I feel really badly but there's nothing I can do about it.
I'm just going to go and do as much as I can possibly do. I don't know if I'm going to be able to finish the chart though because there's just so much in here that I want to tell you about, so I'll do my best. That's what I wanted to tell you because I didn't want to just leave you in mid-word and say, "Oh, I got to go now."
CM: Okay.
Amy: What I do want to do-- You've had your charts done before haven't you?
CM: Yes, not very formally. I worked at a place where everybody--
Amy: Had their chart done.
CM: Yes. Where a person who was-- I worked in this house food place and then a woman who did a lot of astrology had done my chart but between breaks she would show me it.
Amy: Oh, I see.
CM: It wasn't like we had a real formal thing.
Amy: I get you. All right, well, but you're familiar with how a chart is set up, aren't you?
CM: Yes.
Amy: The fact that there are planets, and signs, and houses and that kind of stuff.
CM: Yes.
Amy: Well, what I'll do then is first of all I'm just going to talk about your chart as a whole and give you an overview. The second thing I'll do is talk about your sun sign, your rising sign, and your moon sign, and how they fit together, and how they work. The third thing I'll do if we have time is to go through each house individually and talk about what's in each house until I get around to the whole again. Okay?
CM: Okay.
Amy: For sure if you have any questions or comments or anything to just go right ahead.
CM: Okay.

Amy: Well, the first thing I want to talk about as far as your chart goes is the fact that you do have two major aspects in your chart. What that means is that when you were born Cherrié, at the moment of your birth there happened to have been the planet situated themselves in such a way that they actually formed these big shapes in the middle of the sky. To have one is not super unusual but it's not that common either, but to have two is considered highly unusual, and they're very important because they tend to color everything else in the chart.
You have both a T-square and a Yod, and the T-square is caused because you have two planets that were 180 degrees away from each other, so they formed this straight line, the red line. Then you had another planet that was 90 degrees from the other two, so it forms two right angles or a T shape in the middle of the sky. The T square gives you the feeling that if you just had X, everything in your life would fit together. However, X can be anything, Cherrié. That X could be a relationship, it could be money, it could be material object, it could be work, it could be the perfect body.
It could be the perfect mind, it could be anything and X can change. You can decide oh, oh, this is really X on Tuesday and then maybe by Thursday, you can say well I thought about it again and I realized that's not really X, this is X instead. If you do decide that a particular issue is X and you go off and you get it you really work at it, for a while it really does make you feel complete. After a while it really gives you the feeling of just like gee, this isn't quite right, it isn't quite working. You really feel oh I have to go off and I have to find something else to fulfill me.
It's really analogous to going around and looking for wall outlets. You find an outlet, and you plug your plug into it and the energy starts flowing through and you feel really great and then all of a sudden you short out. Of course, the most normal thing to do in that point is to pull your plug out of the outlet and to say, "Oh what a stupid outlet, it isn't working, I got to go find another outlet." What the T-square is saying is that you do have the short circuit inside of you. Now the short circuit is caused because you have an imbalance of energy.
Now you're not doomed to the short circuit. It's not saying to you, "Oh, well, tough luck, Cherrié, for the rest of your life you're going to be like this." It's saying no, okay there is an imbalance and you can write the imbalance. Now what the imbalance is depends upon the particular planets in the T-square. Now in your case, you have a special kind of T-square, because it doesn't just involve planets. It also involves these two points which are called the nodes. Now the nodes, are not really planets at all.
If you take the orbit of the earth around the sun, and then you take the orbit of the earth's moon around the earth, those orbits cross in two places. The intersection that faces north is the north node, and it points up, and it represents breaking away from past life karma. The intersection that faces down is the self node, and it represents getting sucked into past life karma.
CM: Great.

Amy: To have a T-square with the nodes first of all Cherrié it's telling you that this is an old energy. That this is something that you have been dealing with for lifetimes and lifetimes and lifetimes, and you finally get to it and say, "Okay this is it. I really have to deal with this energy." What the imbalance is about, is connected to these planets because your Pluto-- now Pluto rules transformation and power. It is conjunct, which means it's just totally together with right on top of your self node which is past life karma.
What this says is that in a past life, you were extremely powerful and you felt that your power was your work. It wasn't just powerful personally maybe you were in a situation where you had a lot of personal power, but outwardly nobody saw it. It's saying that you were outwardly known for your power and that you got very connected up to it because of the Leo in a very egoistic way. Instead of seeing yourself as a channel for the power, you really totally identified with this power and said, "Yes, this is who I am. I'm the power and what I want is right for everybody."
Now where's Leo? Because the south node and the Pluto are in the sign Leo, and the Leo indicates that it was a real ego attachment to that power. Now, you also have this energy square to 90 degrees away from the planet Jupiter. Now, Jupiter Cherrié is always a blessing except when it's in a square position, because in that case because Jupiter is expansion it represents over expansion. It represents something that once was good but has turned into too much.
Having Jupiter there square to the Pluto in the south node, that's the fact that you took on the power because you felt it was the right thing to do. You didn't start off saying, "Hey, wow, I want to have a lot of power. I'm just going to get in there and be incredible and have all this power and do whatever the hell I want." It's saying that you started off with very noble aspirations, but what happened is that the more power you got the more you liked it and the more it felt like hey this is pretty good.
All right, I must be pretty far out to have this power, and then the more you got in touch with it the more you wanted it, and the more you got blinded to what was the right balance the more you felt that you had to be the certain energy. Your north node is in Aquarius, and the north node is the breaking away from past life energy. In Aquarius, it says that you're breaking away is by seeing the truth that you're breaking through illusions. Now, the key here is that it's all illusions.
It's not just the illusion of power because you have really learned your lesson having a really packed 12-house. It's telling you that you've been dealing with this power issue for a lifetime. It's not like oh in your last life you blew it and now you have to be real careful about power. You've already seen the negative side of the misuse of power and been the victim now of a misuse of power. This has already happened to you. You don't have to see, "Oh gee, what is power? I can't use it blah blah blah."
In fact, in this lifetime you have to reconnect to the use of power. You have to really see that it is important for you to use this power, and yet what it's saying is you have to use the power with the light in the truth, and that this is a very intense energy for you. Quite naturally a part of you is scared shitless because you look at that power and it's like, "Oh, yes, I remember you. I remember what you were like, forget it I'm not here." Naturally with the T, you feel this incredible duality, because some of the time you feel like, "Who me, Cherrié? Oh no, not me. I don't know what you're talking about. What power? I got no power."
Yet at the same time, the people are there saying, "Oh, Cherrié she doesn't have any power.?" It's like, "What do you mean I don't any? Hey, listen, I have all this power and I got to use this power. Here I am." Then it's like, "Oh my God, what did I do?" "Oh, no. No, I was just kidding. Just kidding, folks. No, I don't have any power. No, no, no, no. Of course, I have power." It goes back and forth. There are some days in which you're right up there, you're right there looking straight into your destiny and saying, "Yes, this is who I am, and this is who I have to be." Other days you're just looking at that and saying, "Oh my God, I can't possibly accept this power. This is just much too scary. It's much too much. No, I can't deal with it."
It is this duality of saying, "Yes, I want it. No, I don't. Yes, I've got to have it. No, I can't." What you're trying to do is to find the perfect balance, is to be able to be a channel of that power, accept your power, but not feel that you have to take on too much of the power and not feel that you can't accept yourself as you truly are. It's a real connection to the truth inside of yourself. Yet at the same time, it's saying that you cannot possibly ignore this power. You must deal with it. That's a really important energy with the T.

CM: What were you saying about the illusion thing?
Amy: Now, the illusion works in two different ways. First of all, it's the illusion that you can use power any old way you want. Every time you get a little bit too egoistic or too cocky with that power, you do get smashed. Every time you say, "Oh, right. Hey, I want this." You talk yourself into thinking, "Oh, this is for everyone else, and it's really for Cherrié and it's long, and it's like the neon signs go off and the sirens, and it's like, "Don, don, don, wonk."
It's like, "Whoops, okay, I'm not going to do it this time." The second side though, is the more insidious side, because that part of the illusion is the illusion that your negativity does to say to you, "Oh, well, you can't have power. You're just too messed up. You'll really misuse it. You can't touch it." The reason why it does that is from your dark side's point of view, you're in this really terrible position because first of all, it had power.
It really had it, and you used it, and your dark side loved it because it had all this incredible energy. It was like, "Hey, I get to do whatever I want." Then you got smashed. You really did get smashed. You went through a number of very painful lifetimes, and your dark side lost its power. Now, here you are in this situation where there's this power hanging right in front of you, and it's saying to you, "Cherrié, use it." You're there going, "All right. I have to use it."
Now, your dark side is fit to be tied because it looks at this and it says, "What do you mean she can use it? This is mine." It's being taught, "Uh-uh. You don't touch it. You don't get near it. You can't even breathe on it." Your dark side's freaking out saying, "Well, if I can't have it, she can't either." It's energy, instead of trying to co-opt the power, it knows enough now that it can't possibly co-opt the power.
You are in no way an evil person, and you're not going to be an evil person. It knows it can't do that. What it figures it can do is to just keep you away from it. Because it says, "Hey, I don't want to get burnt. I don't want to get transformed. If I keep her from being transformed, I'm going to not be transformed either." It's always in there creating all these illusions about the power, saying to you, "Don't touch it. Don't touch it. It'll hurt you. It's bad. You can't handle it. You're not ready."
All these things so that you'll step back and say, "Oh, Gee, oh, I'm not ready. Someday when I'm ready, I'll touch it," or, "Oh Gee, oh God, this is so much and I can't handle this." Or, "Oh wow, what if I blow it? Everybody looks at me and says, gee, Cherrié, we were really depending on you, and you really blew it. Oh God, you really let us down." It's got all these really insidious ways to get to you that are so subtle that they're not out front. You can say, "Well, gee, I must be doing this from the right thing. I just want to be ready. I'm doing this with a really good conscience. It's not like I'm trying to mess things up."
It also can get you through other people. It can say, "Oh, Cherrié, you can't think about yourself right now. You have to think about this other person or these other people." Because then you can say, "Oh, yes. Right. Well, see, I'm not being selfish. I'm not being messed up. I have to go deal with this person, or this situation, or this community, or whatever it is." It's telling you that you have to be really careful about the illusions that your negative energy creates under the guise of positive energy. The way you can tell is how it feels, because no matter what it sounds intellectually, no matter how much you say to yourself, "Oh Gee, really, it's got to be like this. It's really got to be this way. It sounds really good in my mind. It's really creating it." If it in your heart, you just don't feel good about it, you're just saying, "I've got do this. I've got to." Then you know, you've got to go with what your heart says.
What your negative energy does is it creates all this mental veneer, it keeps pulling things up in your mind and saying, "Cherrié, what about this? Oh, and how can you think you're ready? Isn't that ego?" Then you think, "Oh, [unintelligible 00:15:44], it must be ego. I can't think I'm ready, so I'm not ready." Whereas it's all that energy saying, pull her back. Pull her back. Don't let her go. Don't let her go." That's why really accepting your destiny is really confronting that intellectualization of that power as well.

Amy: Now every T-square has a point where it needs to balance because it is a T. There is no planet on the chart because if there was a planet, then you wouldn't have a T at all, you'd have a cross, which is a completely different energy. That missing planet is called the void. It is directly opposite the stem. Your stem is in Taurus. Your void then would be in Scorpio in the first house.
Now, the first house is the house of self-identity, and Scorpio is power. What this says is that the thing that you really need to do is to identify with the truth of your power. The truth that you are a divine warrior in this lifetime. I mean, you really have to be. There's lots of things that you have to get out there and confront that Cherrie and her Libra essence would rather not deal with it all.
Your Libras, there're going, "What? Me? Oh no, not me. I'm just sitting here spacing out." Whereas that Scorpio energy is right in there. It's going, "You are a divine warrior. You got to get out there. You have to clothe yourself in the truth. You have to hold the sword of truth and you have to communicate it. You have to be it." There's a lot of parts of you that are in there saying, "No, I don't want to look at this destiny because it hurts. Besides it's scary. Can't I just stay here and live in a little house on the ocean and not look at anything."
You're being told, "Uh-uh, Uh-uh, you got to get out there and confront." That's the thing that's really scary, is that sense of, "Oh, I've really got to get out there and confront. I've really got to get out there and deal with the energy." The other side of it is it says that you've got to really use that power that for many lifetimes you've been sitting on it and really saying, "I'm not ready, I'm not ready. I can't use it. I'll just blow it again. I'll blow it again." This lifetime, you're right there. It's like your divine energy has come right down to you and it's saying to you, "Okay, Cherrie, this is the time. This is it. You really have to use the energy. You cannot possibly ignore this."
You're finding yourself having to really deal with that energy, having to accept it in spite of yourself. Now, the fact that the Scorpio is in the void does not mean that you don't connect to Scorpios. As a matter of fact, what it says is that at times Scorpios can be incredible catalysts to your life. Because it's almost like their energy, especially if their sun or any planet that they have fits into the void. It's saying that then that energy really helps you to realize the T-square energy. Of course, Barbara is a Scorpio. I don't know if her son, I can't remember what the degree of her son is, so I don't know if it fits into this or not. Do you know what day she was born on-- November?
CM: I'm just forgetting. Oh, no. 17th.
Amy: 17th. There is a real good chance that her Sun would fit into this void. That would just be an interesting thing because it would say that in her very essence would help you to work out this T-square energy. That's just an interesting [crosstalk]
CM: Yes, makes sense.

Amy: That's the T-square. Now you also have a Yod. Now a Yod is a partially resolved T-Square. It's as if you've gotten a T-square and almost worked it out to completion, but just didn't quite manage to get it totally synthesized, like in another life. A Yod is called a Yod because actually Yod is the Hebrew letter for Y, and it is a Y shape. You've got two sets of planets that are 60 degrees away from each other. They form a 60-degree angle, then both of them are 150 degrees away from the stem point.
It's interesting that the stem point here is also Jupiter. Jupiter is the stem for both the T Square and the Yod. What this says is that you have to be really careful at pushing yourself too hard. It's like you've wanted to get through this karma so badly that you've almost decided in past lives that you were just going to burn straight through it. You had at least in one lifetime, I know of at least one in which you were just, ugh. You just decided, lay it on me Lord. It was just like, "Okay, I am just going to totally burn through this. I am not going to get stuck in this again." You did have, I don't know if it was your last lifetime or the lifetime for it but it was incredibly painful. It was very much involved in this intense victimization experience. Your death was a particularly incredibly horrible death where you died. You were raped and murdered in your death and it was just this incredible thing [crosstalk] to sustain. Pardon?
CM: I was saying, why does it feel so recent? Amy: Recent? [inaudible 00:21:16] I'm with you. CM: When you said that, it felt so recent. Amy: Oh, yes. It was so traumatic for your soul. Yet, see, the thing that was so intense about it is that in this really weird way, you engineered it because it was almost like you said, "Okay, that's it. Okay, maybe I victimized some people. Well, I'm just going to burn right through it. I'm just going to rip it off my soul because I'm not going to deal with this anymore." See, I feel like your misuse of power was probably a number of lifetimes ago and you started off dealing with it more intellectually, and you got very frustrated where you felt like, I have to get back to using this power. I can't stand being impotent and not being able to use the power. What you decided to do was to just sear it right off of you and you had this life. It was weird because it's almost like you didn't have to go through it. It's like you just got this thing in your head that you had to release the energy and it's like you couldn't realize that the way you had to release it was to forgive yourself. It was you couldn't forgive yourself. You were so tied into this idea that somehow you were really evil, that you couldn't just say, "Hey, look, just forgive yourself. Let it go." It was almost like in that lifetime, things just kept happening to you that were incredible. It was almost like one of those catastrophic lifetimes where you just could think, what next? How could something else happen to this woman? Yet you would just keep walking right into it. It was like, this isn't hard enough. This isn't heavy enough. I'm not going to be convinced that I'm released until I hit something really heavy. Finally, when you went into that death, it was about the heaviest thing that could possibly happen to you. It was like you just said, okay, this is what I have to go through and yet it was very intense because while you were experiencing it, then you got the truth. Then it was like, what are you doing? You don't have to go through this. Are you crazy? What it set up there Cherrie, is this real, almost like this intense self hatred because you felt like, "I can't believe I did this. Talk about stupid." Then in this lifetime, you have to forgive yourself doubly because not only do you have to forgive yourself for the misuse of power but you have to forgive yourself for your ultimate victimization. That in a way is the hardest because you really have forgiven yourself for the power.

Amy: You know except when you're really feeling depressed that you're not an evil person. You really know that. Sometimes you get to a point, and you get scared and you get depressed and you feel like, "Oh God, I really must be fucked up for this to be happening to me." Basically, it's pretty much all taken care of but the one about the victimization is not taken care of. Now, in one way, it's a good thing because It really fuels your anger because you see that you bought it in that lifetime. You really bought that woman bullshit of like, "Oh, well, you're a woman and so tough luck." This is the way the world is and women were made to be stepped on and you really bought it in that lifetime, and you really took it and you really embodied it.
On one hand, there's a part of you that knows that and sees that, and it fuels your anger. That's a good thing because you know it's like, "I'm not going to take this again and I'm not going to let other women take it which is a really good energy." What happens is you take it really personally then and you say, "Well, sure you are really messed up." If you ever get taken advantage of, it's like reliving the rape and the murder. It's like reliving that energy. Sometimes you're really confused at why you take hurt so hard. Even if someone is just minimally hurtful to you, maybe they don't even mean it. There's a part of you that just takes it so into your heart and it's so overwhelming to you, and you get really angry with yourself.
You feel like, "Will you just stop it? You are not going to be like this now. Just be strong. Be together. Why are you feeling like this? That person can't hurt you. Don't let them hurt you." Yet, at the same time, there's this incredible pain that just washes over you and this incredible feeling of hopelessness and of destitution and feeling really alone and there is no way that anyone can help you or love you. It's almost like just feeling that you're falling into this incredibly deep, dark pit. What that is, is that's that woman in you that went through that, that still is experiencing it. It's like every time anyone hurts you, she relives it. It's like all she wants to do is die. She really wants to die. She just wants to let go.
She doesn't want to have to be stuck there being tortured anymore. The thing that you have to do is you have to release her because you don't need her anger anymore. You needed her anger when you were a little girl because you needed it so that you wouldn't buy into it and so that you wouldn't get caught up in the bullshit. You needed it so that you wouldn't get stuck in all that Libra openness to other people. She kept you. Every time you started losing it and started being too open to other people or losing your integrity or losing your ideal, she was right there being angry, saying, "How can you do that? How can you let me down? They hurt you. Don't let them hurt you again." She was really necessary but at this point, Cherrie, you don't need her anger.
If you buy into it, if you let her continue to make you feel the hurt and to make you feel the torture, you're keeping yourself from being the power that you have to be because not only does she have anger, she has fear. She's the part of you. It's almost like she's this little personality inside of you and she's the part of you that every time you start feeling really powerful shuts down because what happens is she gets scared. It's that thing of, "Oh my God, they're going to do it to you again." She just shuts down. She makes you feel this incredible panic, this incredible fear. She can't keep you from doing your destiny but she can make it a lot harder.

Amy: It's like, first of all, you've got to confront her and you've got to say, "Look, okay, I know, I accept it. I know what happened to you and I'm not going to forget. I promise I will not forget and I promise I will not let it happen to you again. I also know that you're tired, that you can't continue like this and you need to let go." It's like you've got to let her stop hurting because she hurts all the time. She's that part of you that sometimes when you're alone or sometimes when things are the best when you're really feeling good, you feel a lot of love, you feel a lot of respect, you feel a lot of satisfaction. She's that part of you that can't let go, that just can't accept it. It's like she wants to accept it so badly. It's like she's right.
There's the river and she really wants to step over it and she's in there going, "I can't Cherrie, I'm too afraid. I'm too afraid that if I accept it, if I feel the love, if I feel the positive energy, then it's just going to destroy me. Then they'll get me." Then they'll say, "Ah, we got you. We knew it. We knew that if you just relaxed and you felt good, then we could really make you hurt."
She just can't. That's why you think sometimes you're so crazy because sometimes when things are the best, you feel the most panic-stricken because she's in there saying, "Oh God, I can't deal. It hurts too much." It's like if you've ever been out in the real, real, real cold and it's so cold and you come inside, and you've just gotten numb, and then you start feeling things. It just trickles and hurts and you get the pins and needles. It's that energy where she's just gotten so numb that when she starts to feel love, she freaks out. She just freaks out because it just hurts so much.
It's the same thing with sexuality. It's like sometimes when you feel the most openness in sexuality, you feel the most desire to shut down because it's the same thing because in her head, you know, sexuality is bad. It's what got her in trouble. It says, "All right, you feel good about this. Well, listen, sweetheart, I'm going to make you shut down." Sometimes after the most wonderful sexual experience, instead of feeling good, you just feel awful because it's like opening up to that energy.
It's really realizing that it is okay and you can forgive yourself and you can accept yourself and things are going to be all right in this lifetime. That's like a really really scary energy. It just feels so scary to you that you just feel like, "Oh, how can I accept this? I can't accept this. If I accept this, then what kinds of other things are going to happen?" That's why it is just so important for you to be able to let her go and to be able to say to her, "Okay, you don't have to guard me anymore. You don't have to make me accept you anymore. You don't have to make it happen because I know what I have to do and I'll protect you."

Amy: The other thing you have to realize is, because your moon is trying your Pluto, you have a really really strong guardian angel, and your guardian angel is right there to protect you, to make sure that it's okay, to make sure that it's all right for you to accept your energy, to make sure that it's okay for you to be who you really are. It's saying that it's going to protect you, not just physically, but psychically as well. It's really, really important for you to accept that psychic energy, and it's really important for you to really trust that energy inside of yourself and know that you do not have to take on the pain and you do not have to take on the negativity.
The key, as I'm going back to my original thing, is the Jupiter, because what that Jupiter is saying is that in this lifetime, you just have to be very careful not to push too hard. When you start feeling yourself getting overwhelmed, you have got to pull back. There's a difference between just sort of normal fear and being overwhelmed. The fear is just like, okay, you're afraid, but you still feel the energy. You still feel like I've got the energy, I've got the strength, I've got the power, I've just got to go with it. There's a difference between that and that panicky, overwhelming feeling of just like, "Oh, my God, I'm just exhausted, I'm drained. I don't have any energy. I cannot do this."
It's really really important for you to know that you have to let go of this energy. It's really important for you to know that you do not have to pick up on it, that you do have to release yourself and feel the release because it's just a really important energy for you, it's something you need to experience deep inside of yourself. Okay, now, the other way that the Yod works is, okay, so then you split and you've got these two battery of planets. First of all, you've got the moon conjunct to Mars. Now, the moon is the intuitive, subconscious part of yourself and Mars is action energy. It's motivation. Now, this says Cherrie, that you get guided intensely intuitively all the time.

Amy: You are always experiencing a very, very deep guidance energy. It's saying that you really have to pay attention to this guidance. Now, the problem is that the guidance comes intuitively and that it's really, really easy for you to block that intuition. It's really, really easy for you to not connect to that truth inside of yourself at times, because your sun is conjunct to your mercury, which means that Mercury's mental energy sun is being-ness. You just accept your mind energy. Your mind really comes in there and it really says, "What are you talking about, Cherrie? What's this? What do you mean, what are you talking about? How can you believe this?" It's saying that you pick up on energy all the time.
I walk into this room and you've never seen me before, and sure, your mind's going to look at me and say, "Oh, so that's Amy, and she looks like this, and she does this and blah, and blah," but your intuition is going to look at me and say, "Oh, so that's Amy. Well, she's this, she's that. She said something." Nine out of ten times, you're absolutely right with your intuition. The problem is that your mind comes in and it says to you, "What the hell are you talking about, Cherrie? You don't even know this person. How do you know that this is going on?" Especially because you don't just do it about people, you do it about rooms and dogs and cats and books and situations.
You could walk into a room and maybe it's a beautiful room and there's all kinds of nice people there. You say, "There's a lot of tension here." Maybe someone with you is saying "Cherrie are you crazy? Are you out of your mind, everything's fine. What's wrong with know?" And maybe say, your mind goes, oh, yes. Boy, are you stupid? [inaudible 00:35:39]. Then, you know, maybe three weeks later when a friend comes to you and says, "Well, Cherrie, you remember we went to that party and there was this stuff. I didn't realize it, but there was all this stuff going on between so and so and so and so. They just had this big fight, and they're not living together anymore, and blah and blah."
You're saying to yourself, "That was the tension that I felt." Now, the problem is that your mind has absolutely no conscience. That lots of times what happens is it says to you, "Oh, you're full of shit? What's wrong with you? You can't trust such and such." Then when weeks later, you find out that such and such is true, your mind has no qualms about coming back and saying to you, "Cherrie, you knew that that was true. Why didn't you do something about it? Oh, boy, you're stupid. I can't believe it." It's the kind of thing where, see, your mind will switch sides. It doesn't care. It just wants to be right.
That's why it's really important for you to give enough credence to your own intuition because you get guided so much. I cannot stress how much you are guided. You get such strong guidance energy, and yet at the same time, it's really easy for you to negate that guidance. Lots of times it's like running around the rose bush. You go around and around and around, and finally, you're so exhausted, you just give up, and you just give into the intuition. Then you realize that you just should have given into it a long time ago. You say, "Oh, wow, this was right. What's wrong with me? This was absolutely right. Why wasn't I trusting this energy?"
It is just really really important for you to make sure that you do trust this energy, and you do know that it is absolutely right for you, and you do know that this is the right energy, and you can give yourself a lot of support for what you're actually feeling and realizing that that's exactly right for you. It's exactly what you've got to be feeling at this time. The other thing that goes along with that is just the realization that you really need to follow your hunches. You just get hunches about everything, and they're really gut-level. Lots of times you don't follow them because you are scared, because you think, who am I to have these kinds of hunches? Obviously, they can't be true. They're not true.
Then in reality, you wish that you had followed them. Now, the moon energy is the intuitive energy. It's also one of the female energies because it's the real mother nurturance. It's like the goddess energy, and Mars Is the so-called male energy. Because your moon is conjunct to Mars, it's saying that you really have to synthesize your male energy inside of yourself. Because what happened after you went through that rape and murder, I mean, obviously you just [unintelligible 00:38:31] to your male energy. You just said, "All right, that's it. I don't connect to it." The problem is, that it's your male energy that holds your power.
You've been trying to get it into your female energy, but your male energy isn't about to let it go, not now, anyway. What you need to do is you need to synthesize your male energy into your female energy. As long as you hate your male energy, you're not going to be able to serve your power. It's really really important for you to accept that male energy into yourself. Now, you don't have to term it male energy. It's just the so-called male energy. It's just that power. It's that aggression, it's that ability to really focus, to really deal outside of yourself. You have identified it as your male energy in past lives. As far as you're concerned, you still identify it as your male energy.
That it's really important for you to really bring that back into yourself and get it to really hook up with your female energy and get it to really hook up as a positive energy. As long as you see that power as negative, as long as you see that power as an ability to hurt, you're not going to be able to be 100% effective. It's really important for you to draw it back into yourself and to really tie it up to your goddess energy and really accept it in the depths of your soul.

Amy: Now, the other side of the Yod is that you've got Saturn, Neptune, and Venus all conjunct, which means that they were so close together in the sky, they just lined up together around the sun. It's one big, huge ball of energy. Now, this says a number of things. First of all, Saturn is karmic energy. Neptune is healing energy and spirituality and Venus's love energy. Now this does a lot of different things. First of all, one of the things that it does is it says that you really are working out still a lot of karma around relationships. In that past life, you really just close down your heart chakra.
You just said, "Oh, see, it was my heart that got me into this trouble. It was my heart that got me open to this energy. I've just got to really not put myself in that place. I've got to not put myself in that space." What you did is you just shut down your heart chakra and you just said, "Okay, that's it. No more." In this lifetime, you're reopening it. However, because of that incredible pain and hurt you sustained, you're not about to open your heart chakra easily.
In fact, lots of times you feel very dualized between the part of you that wants to experience the love and is there saying to you, "Now, Cherie, you've got to open up. You've got to open up." The part of you that say, "Are you crazy? I'm not going to open up. You've got to be out of your mind. I am not going to open up. I am not going to experience this energy. I refuse to." Yet at the same time, the real sense of, "No, you've really got to open up this energy. You've really got to experience this love that's inside of you."

Amy: Now one of the things that's going to help a great deal is the fact that because your Venus is conjunct to your Neptune very closely. You have what's known as a soulmate or a karmic mate. This is a person that you have been involved with in past lives in many different ways. You may have been her lover, you may have been even enemies, or parent and child, or teacher and student, or siblings, or colleagues, or all kinds of things, and in this lifetime, you come together with the potential to be one with each other on all levels, mentally, physically, psychically, sexually, emotionally, spiritually, every single level you can think of, you have the ability to be one with this person.
However, there is no way to tell if someone is your soulmate by what sign she is, by what the person looks like, by what they do, by when you meet this person. There is no way to tell by any external means. The only way to tell when a person is your soulmate is by the fulfillment of different indications. There are also ways to tell because this relationship is not a lot of things. It is definitely not in any way, shape, or form an abusive relationship. It cannot possibly be an abusive relationship. It is also not in any way, shape, or form a relationship that does not allow you to be your true self. This person has got to totally support you in your true destiny, just as you must support her in her true destiny.
Now one of the indications is the fact that you find you cannot separate from this person, literally, physically. No matter how much you try to be apart, there is some greater force than yourself bringing you together so that you find that you can meet this person and maybe at first you don't feel a big thing. Maybe you meet this person at a party or a bar or a conference or a meeting or something like that and you might feel like, "Oh." Somehow you're going to keep connecting to this person. It's like, "Look, Cherie, this is the person. This is it," which is why you can never meet the person and then do nothing and then someday wake up when you're 85 and in the middle of the night and say
CM: She is the one. [crosstalk]-
Amy: -"Oh my God, it was that birth and then I blew it." It's not like that. You get chance after chance after chance, which is why even if you're together and you feel like, "Oh, fuck, I don't want to deal with this." Forget it. You find that you've got to be there. You've got to work it out together. The second qualification is the fact that you are willing to put more into this relationship than any other relationship you have ever experienced. This relationship forces you to go beyond your own ego and your own sense of self and it's mutual. You are both working out this relationship energy, so it's not like you can't do it. It's like you are forced to deal with it. You are forced to do it. You find that in spite of yourself, your head might be going, "No way, Cherie, why should you work it out? Forget it. You are not going to work it out," and your heart is saying, "You get in there and you work it out. You are not about to not work it out." You find that you cannot help but work out the relationship. You find that you cannot help but deal with this relationship in a complete way.
CM: It's terrifying. [laughs]
Amy: I know it is.
CM: Just saying.
Amy: It is. The third qualification is the fact that the relationship itself follows a certain pattern. First, there'll be a plateau and everything will be very nice and very easy and very lovely. Little by little, it builds up to some kind of crisis point. Now it might be your crisis, it might be the other person's crisis, it might be internal, it might be external, but it's some kind of crisis point. You find that the more you're able to work out the crisis point, the more able you are to love each other, to be together, to experience oneness with each other. Then it goes to another plateau until it builds up to another crisis point. The amount of time between the crisis points depends upon the couple.
For some couples, it's every two minutes, and for other couples, it's every five years. It just depends on what it is that you're working out. The fourth qualification is the fact that you find it's really difficult to explain why you love this person. You can't explain it. It goes beyond explanation. Cause you feel like, "I love her because she's so-- No, that's not it. It must be because she's-- No, that's not it. I think it's because of-- No, that's not it." You find that you just cannot possibly explain it. It's just, it's so deep. It feels so intense inside of yourself. You cannot explain it in any way, shape, or form. It's a really deep energy. All you can do is really trust that energy and know that this is exactly the right energy for you.

Amy: What the soulmate indication does is it guarantees that you will meet this person. What you do after that its up to you. It doesn't say, "Oh, and you'll live happily ever after." You still have to work out the relationship. Obviously, for you, it's a very intense energy because you do have a real struggle opening up your heart. Obviously, this person is definitely going to open up your heart, and she is not going to allow you to close down. The other thing is that it's really forcing you to let go of pain around relationship. It's forcing you to work out sexuality, and it's forcing you to open up to the truth inside of yourself. It's forcing you to say, "Yes, this is who I really have to be. I can not be anybody else."
Now the other thing it says is that with the Saturn conjuncture Neptune that in this lifetime, you really have to use your healing energy in your work. Of course, you can only do that when you experience love in your heart, and that you really have to experience a deep openness and a deep energy inside of yourself, and that you just have to know that this is the truth, that you have really got to experience the truth inside of yourself. You've really got to experience the knowledge that you are a healer in this lifetime and that you're really meant to use the love that you're feeling from other people to learn to love yourself, to learn to forgive yourself.
The key here is self-forgiveness, it is self-acceptance, and it's the knowledge that all you can do is really, really be open to this truth. All you can do is really, really be open to what you know is true inside of yourself. Now Saturn, Neptune, and Venus are sextile the moon and Mars. This is interesting because then Venus is sextile the Mars, which is the union of the so-called male-female energy. It does say that when they work together, you feel a real sense of completeness and openness inside of yourself.
Then these are both in conjunct to Jupiter, which says that at times you feel a real duality between that really active part of you, the real so-called male aggressive, active, powerful part of you, and then the real victimization part of you so that what you're trying to do is to switch energy. You're trying to get the male energy part of you to experience nurturing, to experience love, to experience hope, to experience transformation. You're trying to get the female part of you to stop being the victim because that female part of you still really identifies with the victim. You need to get her to feel strong, to feel strength to power, aggression, all the things that you want to feel. You're switching the energy.
That's what the Yod is talking about is the real switch of energy will allow you to release yourself from that duality because it says at times, you really experience that duality, and it is very confusing to you. Here you are, one day, you can be so strong and so aggressive and totally like, "No, I do not experience this pain inside of myself." Then the next day, you can just totally fold in on yourself and experience real victimization.
It's very confusing to you because you feel like, "What is going on?" Of course, then too, you're giving real mixed messages to people. Both I'm invincible, I am strong, and I'm the complete victim. Then you're feeling like, "What the hell? What kind of credibility do I have that I'm expressing both of these energies?" Yet they're both there because they're both a part of you. What you're trying to do is to give power to the victim and give compassion and love to the assertive part of you so that both of them experience a synthesis and a connection inside of yourself, and that's a really strong work that you're experiencing at this time. [chuckles]
CM: I know it's so much.
Amy: I know it is. [crosstalk] We've just scratched the track. I know. I feel like I just go and do it and I feel like, [unintelligible 00:51:21] Excavation.

CM: I know it's not hardly any time, so I'm not saying much, but it's wonderful to hear what you're saying. It's very painful. [crosstalk]
Amy: I know it's painful.
CM: -but it's wonderful to have it said back to me.
Amy: It's almost like you have to release the pain. It's painful because it's like opening up a wound to the air, and yet it's the only way you're going to heal it. That's the other thing I wanted to say. See because you feel such a need to be powerful, you feel a lot of shame about the victim, and that's the thing that's really maybe the most detrimental because you can't see yourself in shame. She herself felt an incredible amount of shame. It's just that myth. It's that thing of, well, if a woman gets raped, and if a woman gets heard, it's because she asked for it.
CM: It's also very Catholic and very Mexican, both of which I am. All the stuff that you're saying, for me, it's just is so cultural too. Women are thought of particularly around sexuality, so it's just like the clicks are phenomenon.
Amy: It's the kind of thing where you felt, so there's that real deep, deep, deep little well of shame in there that when you start feeling like, "Hey, I am a really strong woman. I'm an incredible person. I am a divine warrior." That little voice goes, "Oh yes. Well, I'll tell you another thing. You are a real complete, total fucked up person. You were victimized to prove it. On top of it sweetheart, it's going to happen again."
It's that thing too. "Don't let anybody get too close," because that goes right into the lover thing. Here, if there's a person who really loves you and a woman who really wants to give to you and really wants to totally accept you, then that voice comes up and says, "Oh yes, she's going to accept your shame, too." It's that feeling of like, "I can't let her in. I can't let her close because if she sees she'll be repulsed." She'll just look at you and go, "Oh, [unintelligible 00:53:39]. How can I love that?" There's that hedge. It's that little wall you put around yourself and say, "Oh no, oh no." It feels very virtuous because it feels like, "Well, I'm doing it for your own good."
It's like, "I know I'm a shamed woman, so I can't let you share my shame." Yet it's so bullshit. As you said, it's so cultural. It's what we women have been experiencing for centuries. eons. Also coming from where you've come from with the Catholicism and with the Mexican culture and then putting it on top of all the karma, it's right there, and yet what this is saying is that you've just got to break through it. It's really important for you to realize that you cannot feel ashamed of yourself. See, what happens is then it gets twisted, and you start feeling ashamed of the power.
Instead of feeling like, "How can I be ashamed of being a victim? Hey, this is something I bought into, and I'm not going to buy into it anymore." Then what happens is that voice says, "Oh, and you should be ashamed of the fact that you're powerful too. What about all the women who aren't powerful?" How dare you? How dare you rub their faces in it? Then you feel like, "Oh God. Nothing really that terrible and horrible and disgusting has happened to me and I somehow escaped in this lifetime." Well, it should happen to me, so I should feel ashamed that it hasn't happened to me as fully as it could."
It's really getting you both coming and going. That's why it's so important for you to really release the shame and really allow yourself to feel good about the fact that you are protected, that you are meant to be a warrior, that you are meant to experience that power, and that you do not have to be victimized ever again in this lifetime. You will not be victimized ever again if you choose not to be. That's a really important karmic lesson for you.

Amy: Okay. The reason why this is coming up so strongly now is that you are starting about a six-year cycle. That is a very important cycle for you. It's like you started it actually years ago. You started it about four years ago. You started this very important Saturn experience, and then you had a respite. You had a rest for about a year, and now you're starting it again.
First Saturn in the sky as you know is continually moving. You happen to have all this stuff back to back. As you can see, you have so many planets right here. Now what happened is that you have Saturn, it passed over your 10th house. The 10th house is the house of work, and Saturn rules work.
When Saturn passes through the 10th house, it says then that you really are experiencing a real need to deal with your work energy. That was happening, I think it was around '78. Let me just check. It started at 11 degrees of Leo. You started experiencing it starting in September of '76, actually. You started experiencing it. It continued until September of '79. That was over a three-year period. Then you had a little bit of a respite. Then starting last September, so September of 1980, you started experiencing it again very intensely, and you will continue experiencing it for quite a while.
CM: Now, is that specifically around work again, or this is something [crosstalk]?
Amy: No, now it's something else. Okay? Now what you're experiencing is a number of things because first of all, you have your sun in Libra. You also have Saturn in Libra, and you have your ascendant in Libra. I know you have your ascendant in Scorpio, excuse me, but your 12th house is ruled by Libra. Whenever Saturn passes over the sun or Saturn or the 12th house, it creates a very deep experience. Now your sun is in the same sign as your Saturn and your Saturn is in your 12th house. It's like having three different cycles all back to back, all affecting you all at the same time. That's a very intense energy for you. [crosstalk]
CM: It started in September?
Amy: It started in September. Now what it does is it affects you on all these different level. First of all, it affects you with your sun. What it says is that you are then having to confront all of your own limitations at this time, and you really have to deal with all the limitations that you create inside of yourself. Also, you're in your Saturn return, and the Saturn cycle affects you in a lot of different ways.
First of all, one of the ways it affects you is that it really forces you to really let go of your childhood and to accept your adult energy so that all of a sudden, you, Cherrie, are learning to be an adult in a total way. Now what that means is that you're empowering yourself. You're really accepting your power and your identity on a whole new level, on a level that you have never experienced before. It's saying then that you really need to deal with a lot of different issues with your Saturn cycle.
The first issue is the issue of letting go of your childhood, which means that all of a sudden, all these things that you have really associated with your childhood. All the things that you haven't felt ready to deal with, you really have to deal with now. It's really connecting and confronting that energy. Really being able to look at it, really being able to say, "Yes, this is something that I really have to deal with. This is something that I really have to connect to. This is something that I really have to confront inside of myself." Now the second thing that's going on with this is the realization that you also then have to deal with your work.
One of the ways that we decide whether a person is an adult or not is by their work, which is why obviously for so long women were never considered adults. [chuckles] You are really looking at your work now and deciding what you're going to do with it. You've got three choices. Either what work you've been doing so far isn't your true work, and now that you're in your Saturn cycle, you have to let go of it, and you have to accept your true work, or you've just been doing something that was really right for you, and it was your true work, but now it's changing, and you're accepting a new energy because you're now going to another level, or what you've been doing has been your true work, but now you're really broadening it and extending it and experiencing it on a whole new level.
It's saying that it's very, very, very important for you to really get in touch with experiencing that transformational energy and knowing that now is a time for you to let go of your past and to really accept your future. You do this in a number of ways. First of all, the first step in the Saturn cycle is figuring out what you really don't want. It's almost as if you're in there cleaning out your psychic closets and you're saying, "Okay, well, I don't need this anymore and I don't need this anymore and I don't need this anymore. I really don't need to let go of this energy. I don't need to hold onto this energy. I can let go of it. I am going to let go of it, and I'm really going to accept a new energy deep inside of myself."
The next step is figuring out what you really do want. That's harder because it comes in dribs and drabs. It's learning how to be quiet enough and open enough to accept that energy. It's learning how to say, "Oh, okay, I've really got to learn how to accept this energy. I've really got to be open to accepting this truth inside of myself and knowing that this is exactly the right energy for myself."
It's slowly and surely getting in touch with the energy and learning how to be open to that energy in a really good way. Now the third thing that happens with the Saturn cycle is because the etheric body of adulthood, consciousness of adulthood is actually connecting to your real physical body. You're really changing your connection to other people who used to be adults to you. Your connection to your parents can change because they're no longer your parents. It's like you are now an adult. You are peers now.

Amy: One of the things that happens in the Saturn Cycle is you come face-to-face with your own mortality because children never die. Children don't die. Even when they're dying, they don't die. It's because they don't have a real sense of their mortality, but adults die. All of a sudden, now, you're really confronting that mortality, and you're grieving for the loss of your childhood. It's really easy in your Saturn cycle to experience a great deal of grief, and you've just got to let it come right through you. Also, you're grieving for the death of your parents no matter what shape your parents are in. Whether they're alive or not, whether they're healthy or not, you're going to grieve for their death because they're no longer your parents.
You realize that you are an adult, they're adults, they are dying. That's a real intense energy for people to deal with. Another thing that happens is that you really have to deal with your own insecurity because being in your Saturn cycle, it's really, really easy to feel insecure. It's that feeling of like, "Oh, everything's changing. I'm in a kaleidoscope now. I want everything to be the same. I want everything to be secure, and yet, somehow it isn't." One of the things you're really working on is you're really allowing yourself to break through that insecurity. You're really, really allowing yourself to know what it is that you have to do.
You're really being able to say, "Okay, I know that what it is that I have to do is really accept the truth inside of myself. I know that what I have to do is really be able to know that my only security is my truth, is my destiny, and I can't try to pin it on anything else." It is an insecure time. It is a painful time, but it's also a time of releasing the past and accepting your true identity.
Now the fact that Saturn will soon be moving through your 12th house. Right now, it's still in your 11th house. It's a little bit of a respite, and it will start getting into your 12th house. Let's see, it has to hit 13 degrees. It'll be in your 12th house by your-- let's see, is it by [unintelligible 01:05:55]? No, it's by next October. It's October of '81. It'll go back into your 12th house.
Starting in October of '81, you're going to feel as if circumstances are forcing you to release negative energy, to release your limitations. It's almost as if this really strong force comes down into you and takes this really high-powered flashlight, and is looking in all the corners and under the bed and in the closets and saying, "Okay, now you got to really deal with this shit. You've got to really deal with this shit," yet it affects you outwardly, externally.
As an example, one person I knew who was going through this. Her lover was someone she really didn't want to be with yet she was really holding onto it because she didn't want to hurt her lover's feelings. Then when Saturn was in her 12th house, her lover said, "I don't want to be with you anymore." At first, of course, the woman was feeling really frustrated and really angry.
Then she realized what a fool she was. It was like, "Oh God, I feel relieved." This is what you really wanted. It's that kind of energy where sometimes things happen, and yet when they happen, at first, you might feel a real frustration or a real anger, but then you realize it's exactly what you want it to happen. It's this thing of like, "Oh, I'm so pleased. I'm so thankful that this happened. Now I don't have to carry it anymore."
Realize it's starting in October of '81, you will be going through this period of time in which external circumstances are forcing you to grow, and yet you know that that is the best thing that could happen to you. You realize that all the things that are happening, they're the things that you really wanted to happen, and yet at the time, it might feel very scary to you and might feel very difficult to you. It's really getting in touch with accepting that energy and knowing that that is absolutely the right thing and that you really can accept it-
[END OF AUDIO]

Gloria Anzaldúa: What’s today?
Chela Sandoval: I don’t know. I think it’s the 9th.
GA: Today is July 9th and Chela’s gonna read my palms. How about that?
[Inaudible]
GA: Bueno entonces…
CS: Let’s see, you’re right-handed?
GA: I’m right-handed but my left hand dominates.
CS: Do you write with your right hand?
GA: I write with my right hand.
CS: Were you taught to write with your right hand when you were little?
GA: [cross talk] I was switched when I was little

CS: [inaudible] left-handed?
GA: See, the part of me that predominates is the right brain. You know, whichever palm you put over first when you do like that? Okay you’re left-brained–I mean–you’re a right-handed person. I’m a left-handed person even though I write with my right hand.
CS: And when you grab for something, do you grab with your left hand?
GA: Um, up until it broke. I was doing most of the things with my left hand but then I broke this arm so then I started doing things with this right hand.
CS: So would you tell me that you’re left handed or right handed?
GA: Right now I’m right handed but naturally I’m ambidextrous. When I was little…
CS: When you were born, when you were born were you left-handed?
GA: Yes… I think I was.
CS: This is your left hand?
GA: This was in a cast so it's a little more wrinkled. But why don’t you read my right hand since that’s what I am now? They’re very different, no?
CS: Well the thing is that whichever hand you use is the hand that is the manifestation of your life as you're living it.
GA: mmhmm I’m right-handed.
CS: Your left hand, or your other hand--the hand that you use less--is a reflection of the potentials and the dynamics that you needed to work out in this life. For example, let's say it's your left hand. What’s written on your left hand is the markings of your spirit, the things that your spirit needed to work out, the things that your spirit wanted to work out. It’s a marking of the progression you’ve made up until this point–your spirit has made up until this point. The markings on your right hand, or the hand that you use the most, is the marking–marks the progression that you’ve made in this life.
GA: Okay do it on the left.
CS: Left being what you came in with…
GA: Yes
GA: And this is what I am now.
CS: Okay…

CS: Um…okay. You have the hands of someone who has many different kinds of strengths and powers. It’s not as if you are only a philosopher, or only an artist, or only a worker, but you have a potential. You have all kinds of energies running through you. Different kinds of potentials pulling you in many different directions.
GA: Yes, they do pull. [laughs]

CS: Um, you came into the world with a spirit-self that was very emotional–that required, that very much needed to have an emotional dependence on the family that it was raised with. I mean there was like something that you needed to work out. You had known about emotional dependence with the family to be raised with. There’s something there that you needed to work out. Previously you have been emotionally dependent, and there had been a lot of trauma and anguish, you might say.
GA: Previous to this lifetime?
CS: Previous to this lifetime. And your relationships with your family in your early childhood are…were such that there was stuff that, you know, you needed to work out.
GA: See, I think there was a whole lot of stuff between me and my mother, me and my father.
CS: And…that in this lifetime instead of there being the kind of, hmm…let’s say, the anguish of your early life, emotional life, affected your life and affected your health in the past. In this life you were able to make some kind of breaks away from your sibling, your life, your mother, your father, your sisters your brothers your uncles your aunts, those that you were raised with as a child. You have made breaks of…. They have forced you–or– you have become more independent. Um, you..it was like a forcible…through an act of will you have been able to become more independent as I’m reading this. See but this…I wonder if I should be reading this in this manner… See your fate line is coming in here. Now if we were reading your hand the other way around, I would say that– See my mother knows how to do this better than I do.
GA: You’re doing fine!

CS: Okay well, your fate line shows on your right hand--Is this your right hand?
GA: Yes.
CS: It shows an independence of will you might say.
GA: mmhmm, I’m very willful.
CS: But your left hand shows even more of an independence of will. And not only that, it shows that you have had a destiny that has affected the lives of many other people up until this point. And it looks like this is right at the point that you’re at right now. I mean, I don’t know which hand is the present hand, you know what I mean, cause you say you’re ambidextrous. Um- it's so weird. This hand is so weird 'cause, um-it shows--this shows a very strong will power. A very strong creation of one’s own destiny. Not like, if this line here were coming from this side here and coming up like mine does, this shows a life that is very much determined by other people. The whims of others or the desires of others–that sort of thing, But this shows a creative willpower–act of will which is carving out your destiny. And it also shows a destiny which is um…. Which is having a great influence on other people’s lives. I mean this is about, shows the life of [inaudible] Someone in their thirties, late thirties. But this…
GA: So you think this might be…
CS: What you came into the world with.
GA: And this is what I’ve made of it?
CS: mmhmm [inaudible] [GA and CS are talking at the same time]

GA: Well, the way that, the last person that read my palm, she had me go like this and she says that the left hand predominates so this is the one that you read now and this is what I came in with.
CS: Shall we do it that way?
GA: Okay.
CS: Okay, so if we do it that way, it shows that you had, let’s see…that you have an independence of spirit. You came in with more of an independence of spirit, although stuff to work with your–you had stuff to work out with your family that you came into the world with, but that there was this independence of spirit there. You had not lived a kind of life which had had a great effect on the lives of other people. Maybe you had been doing growth in your own on yourself, so now in this life you have had a very emotionally heavy relationship with your mom and your dad.
GA: Yes. Very heavy.
CS: I mean even more so, you have not been able– you have a very emotionally dependent relationship with those that you were raised with, let’s say that.
GA: Sí

CS: And at the same time, you have developed a great destiny. You, through an act of will, you have created that destiny on your own.
GA: Wow! That’s what I was told by a German, uh, Russian woman who read my palm about seven years ago, she says I am creating my own destiny.
CS: Wow. That’s really neat. And not only that you have created a destiny that has had an effect on other people’s lives, but anyway…a lot of people.
GA: My students
CS: mmhmm
GA: But it stopped?
CS: No, it hasn’t stopped, it just hasn’t come into its full– your line’s always change. That’s why it's good to get your palm read occasionally because the lines are always changing.
GA: I have my prints in my journal.
CS: Great!

GA: So this line will be growing?
CS: mmhmm. Mine goes this way and then that way and a little this way. I’m gonna have different transitions in my life. You have a lot of travel lines in your life, in your hand already these things here, these are all travel lines.
GA: You think I’ll be traveling for the rest of my life?
CS: Looks like there’s a lot of travel lines in here….these lines coming up here, I’m not sure how to read them.
GA: Are they worry lines?
CS: These come in sideways in here where nervous tension lines. And you know, you show that you have a very sensuous nature.
GA: mmhmm [laughs]
CS: And that you can be a bit stubborn. Or at least you came in a bit stubborn.
GA: I can be very stubborn. I’m trying to loosen up.

CS: Yeah, you have been able to develop your intellect. You have a long and deep head line. It’s not…in this hand it’s less…
GA: Developed?
CS: No, it's very developed in this hand, but it's a little more developed in this hand.
GA: See, I have a very intellectual part of me which I think is probably dying down. I think I’m becoming more intuitive, relying more on [inaudible]
CS: You have the psychic cross in the middle of your hand. In this hand. And then this one’s not quite as developed, but here you’ve got it
GA: And what is this cross, here?
CS: That’s a blessing over, um, you have a couple of protected–this is a blessing…this is a blessing-but I don’t remember what-you’ve got the blessing on this hand– on this finger, but not here. But here you’ve got it on –I think one is creativity and I don’t know what the other is.
GA: I think this is truth and…isn’t it power? The Saturn finger?
CS: Could be. Um…the traveling could affect your health if you’re not real careful.
GA: Yeah, yeah cause what I do is I wear myself out and then I go home and I’m sick for a week.
CS: And it doesn’t look like anything serious.

GA: Well what is this thing here? This space here? Is that anything?
CS: Well it looks to me that your destiny line has–is connects up with another line which is kind of a protection. See, this line up here, and these lines that come here, they kind of protect and help. These are lines of protection around your [inaudible]. Which you sort of need right here, cause these travel lines seem to cross over your destiny line and meet up with your life line a little bit
GA: And look at all these lines here, isn’t that…
CS: The way your destiny is affecting your life, but also there might be some [inaudible] all of this is nervous energy lines crossing over your [inaudible]
GA: I think this is the healthiest I’ve been, though. I used to be…
CS: You have a good health line–you don’t have–
GA: Okay and the health line is this right? Which is the health line?
CS: Yeah, this must be it, here. It’s kind of an unusual constitution, but it’s not one that is going to detrimentally affect your life, unless the travel–
GA: Why is it unusual?
CS: Because you know it’s interesting because it comes up and it's connected to this blessing you have here. I think that’s the creativity. And it comes up– ‘cause usually the health line begins here.
GA: Sí, yeah this is creativity and this is the finger of Apollo so this would be creativity. This is communication. Mercury. No?
CS: mmhmm
GA: So maybe my blessing is in creativity.

CS: You um you have some stuff to work out about…in your–you came into this world with a knowledge about love but you weren’t really able to completely love. Give yourself in love and receive in love. But you had a pretty clear knowledge of what love was about but not really a complete ability to give or to receive in love.
GA: It’s hard for me to receive
CS: Mmhmm so that was what you came in as, with. But in this life you’ve had a lot of. This life, or what you came in with, you didn't come in with a lot of trauma about love. You know you pretty much knew [
GA: mmhmm] what love was about, you just, for some reason, hadn’t really acted to out its potential. [
GA: mmhmm] The knowledge of your potential. [
GA: mmhmm] Potential of your knowledge and after that the potential of your knowledge. This hand shows that you haven’t had an easy life when it comes to love. You’ve had some sort of traumas about love. But somehow these traumas have done several things. One is that you sometimes may have kind of a romantic idea about what love is about. You may tend to romanticize [
GA: [giggling]] your love, lover, or potential lover [
GA: Si] So that you may be thinking of them more in an imagistic kind of way, because you’re romanticizing them so much.
GA: Sí
CS: So that’s one thing that this--
GA: I also have--I also want perfectness.
CS: mmhmm That’s what that tends to do. This is what this trauma in your experiencing of love has done, it’s–for one thing, it's given you this tendency to romanticism in love. And

GA: What is this break?
CS: I see it as being another direction possible for you
GA: [ahh!] So in the heart line there’s another direction so that that means like maybe lesbian? No?
CS: I don’t know. I see it as
GA: I mean that’s probably something else
CS: I see it as a potential to experience. A potential to be able to have a deep loving connection with another human being or with people in general, but it’s not quite actualized yet, it's like more of a potential. And it has to break from this romanticism stuff, because the romanticism stuff keeps you, will keep you distant from people. And this other line here shows another direction that you have in you to act out and it shows like the come up real high. See how it’s kinda comin up in there?
GA: mmhmm
CS: This coming in between these two fingers shows an ability to love in a complete way in a realistic way.
GA: Oh. so this line in the heart line that goes off, that is in romanticism? And the one that curves between the Jupiter and Saturn finger is the one that is the more complete, more whole one?
CS: mmhmm
GA: Hmmm!
CS: And I think a healthier kind of love. And see how it’s kind of coming in here but it's not quite actualized yet.
GA: mmhmm
CS: So, that’s probably something that you're working on now. [long pause] The romanticism stuff I think may give you a tendency to be kind of narrow-minded about some things.
GA: [laughs]

CS: But your psychic-self keeps you broad-minded. This bridge is a kind of bridging here that keeps you is keeping you broad-minded but that’s kind of–is a tendency in you to be kind of narrow-minded
GA: I’m very stuffy and narrow-minded and picky about the people that I want to be lovers with and stuff.
CS: Hmm! So maybe that’s what’s showing up here. You have some relationship lines coming in here. See it looks like one towards the end of your life that’s that’s a marriage it looks pretty good, and then another one in the middle of your life that looks…that’s all there already in marked in your hand.
GA: hmm…Wow
CS: This one in the end of your life looks like it’s a real positive, "up" relationship, and the other one looks like you go through a lot of shit together.
GA: Yeah, I think this line must be me and Randy. We had real hard times. This one. I don’t know who the other one is.
CS: You haven’t met them yet.
GA: So there’s only two lines?
CS: Well, there could be more coming in. The lines are always changing, you know? More come, some come, some go.
GA: And what are the ones that are like this?
CS: I don’t really know how to read those. They’re not good enough to discern which things mean stuff and which things don’t. I think that’s all that I can do.
GA: That’s very good.

CS: Let’s see the other one just one more time. This is what we decided you were born with, huh?
GA: Yes.
CS: This one shows that you haven’t traveled as much. That you were more sure of yourself, but maybe almost…
GA: Arrogant?
CS: Lacksadaisical in your approach to life. And you know things were more or less simple. Clearcut. Black and white. You know, for you. And that your health wasn’t as good–physically. That your attitude toward life, maybe your kind of indolence caused you to be lazy about your health and that may have affected your life, but it didn’t really affect your ability to love or your–the way you thought about things. Things were pretty clear, black and white. You did some traveling. You still had a blessing around your creativity and you were a very sensuous person. But you have done a lot of growing in this life if you read it this way. I think you should.
GA: Yeah I think so too.
CS: And um you know, you’ve done a lot more traveling. You've chosen to come into a family where there would be a lot of complicated issues for you to deal with. It’s enabled you to love a great deal more and in more complexity, but you still have a lot of stuff to work out about love. You have more of a capacity to love now than you did before. But that’s still something you’re kind of stopped at. You are much stronger–you’ve been forced to develop a willpower that enables you to go beyond yourself, and it's caused you to have a lot of experiences which are going to affect every aspect of your life but you have a very strong mind and will power. And actually your health is much better, your constitution, because of the changes that you’ve made in your life and family. And you’ve got the psychic cross in the middle of your palm which tells us that you’re psychic.

GA: What about a Girdle of Venus?
CS: My mom knows about Girdles of Venus. I don’t think you have a Girdle of Venus. Do you think you have one?
GA: I don’t either. But I–I don’t either.
CS: I almost bought a palmistry book in the store. I’ve never read a palmistry book so I don’t know.
GA: You just learned from your mama?
CS: Just listening to her like Rose is probably gonna be able to do this cause she’s heard me do it so many times I bet she’s picking up on how to do it. But you know, I didn’t think I knew how to do it I just kinda started getting interested in what people’s palms were like cause I saw my mom doing it, so I’d say can I see your palm, and I’d just look and they’d say, well what do you see what do you see? And I thought I don’t know how to do it, I was just interested in what it looked like. But um, I’d have to get a palmistry book and study up on this cause you've got some designs in here that I don’t know how to read.

GA: And also, there are all these crosses and stuff, you know?
CS: mmhmm. I think these all have to do with traveling.
GA: But you know these wrinkles have gotten bigger cause I remember when I discovered this was communication and this was creativity they weren’t that long.
CS: But you’ve definitely got a blessing on your creativity. Both sides.
GA: That’s like an X?
CS: mmhmm. It’s there… Here, it's even more definite. Really definite here.
GA: Someone told me that if this curves in like this, that you’re a lesbian.
CS: Oh really? I hadn’t heard that before.

[inaudible; a woman speaking loudly]
GA: What is that sound?
CS: It’s the tape recorder going. Oh, it’s somebody walking by outside. There are lines connecting.
GA: See this thing coming down, let me see your other hand. No, instead of curving down it curves up.
CS: This may be stuff coming up.
GA: I don’t know, it's just someone told me that. You’ve got lots of creativity. No? What are these?
CS: Yeah, that’s a big X.
GA: Y aquí? Communication. What is this big X, you have it over here, too.
CS: Yeah, same thing.
GA: Did your mother tell you?
CS: It’s communication. No, uh uh. But I had a lot of stuff to work out about love. And…
GA: Well this–
CS: mmhmm. I came in with a good mind but my intellect is not as developed in this life as I had the potential to have it be.
GA: I think its very developed, no?
CS: Well, I mean because of the work I do it forces me to think but actually I had kind of a traumatic childhood. See I have these nervous energy lines that come up past my life line. And they cross my head line and make this island here and continue over and cross my heart line and reach up to my health line here.
GA: And these are all nervous lines?
CS: This is a nervous energy line that crosses all the way over here, and it makes an island here which shows a type of insanity that occurred, and I think that affected my ability–my intellectual abilities–because this line is not as long as it is on my other hand. On my other hand it comes all the way to here. It stops here. And it’s also not clear, and that break in it–see how yours is clear and straight? That shows that you can think clearly. So I had some damage here in my life that I have to overcome. And here, you can see some of the stuff around my heart.
GA: Bueno, and this is your health line?
CS: Mmhmm
GA: It’s so straight. So straight…
CS: I know, but it's not good that it's there. The less of a health line you have, the better off you are. Which line, which hand is this? Your right hand?
GA: This is my right hand. What I came into the world with.
CS: And this is your left hand. See–you have all this protection stuff around your life line and you have a very small health [inaudible] but here you’ve got a definite health line [inaudible]. See this shows that I have kind of a delicate—

[Tape Stops]

Song in foreign language plays [Intermittent sounds of pages turning; door opens]

SG: I wish I spoke Spanish so that you could, lapse into Spanish because I know you [unintelligible].
GA: [laughs] Yes, you have to remind me. Okay. Your receptivity has the capability of-- what am I…?--of being concrete, of you actually getting work from it, of it becoming concrete. For example, it becoming a book and because it's a discard, of really manifesting it, birthing it. What you might need to do is, just maybe center yourself more and clear your mind, and get a little more into a meditative state when you do this work. Because what happens is that, people get a lot of their energy from the upper chakras, cosmic energy, and they don't get enough of the earth energy. Consequently, they're up here in their head, or in the astral up here, and not enough in the body. Because this is a position of your creativity and your receptivity in this earth, it tells me that you might not be getting enough, either you're getting too much or not enough energy from the earth, that you might need to sit on the grass five minutes every day and get energy from the earth, because we're surrounded by concrete. Yes, you might want to go to the park once in a while and lean on the tree and get energy from the earth.
SG: Good

GA: The time to do it that's most, what was that word again? Pro-
SG: Propitious.
GA: That's most propitious is eight weeks from now or eight months from now, which would put you into…I didn't bring my calendar.
SG: December. It's January.
GA: Or in the month of Virgo. The other thing is that a person with Venus in Virgo or with Venus in Virgo prominent in their chart, or Virgo prominent in their chart, might have a lot to do with-- affect your receptivity and your creativity. You might want to look at your cards.
SG: I have an ascendant. Virgo's ascendant. It's rising.
GA: Ah, okay. Well that might represent you. The three things here are, again, there's three here, three here, and three here, so there's nine. Very balanced. So you have nothing to do but gain from getting into receptive modes and becoming a channel for your creativity.
SG: And the source of that is more often the earth than the head?
GA: In your case, yes. If you had pulled a wand here, that's more like spiritual cosmic energy. If you had pulled a cup, it would be more emotional energy. If you had pulled a sword, that would be more of the idea and the intellectual. Because you pulled an earth, that has more to do with concrete reality, manifesting an earth energy.
SG: Good. Good, good.

GA: Instead of air, fire, and water. Okay. Your right side, your decision-making aspect of your nature is represented here by the Nine Wands, which is strength. The wands represent intuition, spirituality, inspiration, fire. Fire is usually a symbol for purification. As your feminine creativity is represented by earth, your masculine is represented by fire. Again, it's a nine. Perfectly balanced.
SG: Really?
GA: Yes. Both of these cards have the hermit as their--
SG: Parallel. Yeah?
GA: Yes.
SG: Yeah.
GA: The time that's per–[laughs]
SG: Propitious.
GA: Propitious. [laughing]
SG: It's a wonderful word. I love it that you love it.
GA: It's again nine weeks from now or nine months from now. Usually, when it's a negative card, I'll say, okay, look back nine weeks, or nine months ago. In this case, we'll look forward.
SG: Good.

GA: What's interesting about this card is it has both the sun, which is consciousness and awareness, and the male, in some cases, and, according to this patriarchal stuff we learned. The moon is feminine receptivity, the lunar, the night, and subconscious creativity. They're both joined by the same wand, by the same rod. This means that it's perfectly balanced in you right now. When you make your decisions and when you delegate, pass through other people, do it from a place of strength and of centeredness. Every time you think, well, you're going to be swayed off your feet by the demands of someone, think of this card and meditate on this card. It's the sun in Sag, in Sagittarius. That means that you have to be very direct in communicating your orders, your messages. Your communication has to be very direct upfront. Sag is like aiming straight for it. So is the previous card, the Nine of Disks game. They both deal with hitting the mark and aiming directly. It's really amazing that the two sides of nature are balanced.
SG: Really? Does that say they are balanced, or that I must work on balancing, or both?
GA: I think that they are balanced but you have to maintain this balance. You have to maintain it because what you are right now doesn't mean you are tomorrow. Maybe when you meditated it cleared up a lot of stuff for you because you don't seem to have very many problems. There's flames in the background. It would symbolize inspiration, intuition. Then all the little shafts.
SG: Are they shafts or are they--
GA: They're little shafts in the arrow.
SG: Yes, right.
GA: And they're moons. The points are also moons. It just means you're a very strong lady. That strength is your mainstay. That nine months, nine weeks from now, or nine months from now, either one of those, that you might be challenged. A situation will come up to test you to see whether you're going to use strength or not. Just like over here. If you're going to be centered enough. These little tests come periodically. This is to check up on you and see if you're on your path. It could be a person, a Sagittarian person. If it doesn't happen nine weeks from now or nine months from now, it might happen during the time of Sagittarius. Usually, those times will, you'll remember them. You'll remember those events because they leave-- All these dates that I'm giving you, they're going to be there. I've not ever heard of one that hasn't been. [laughs]
SG: Really? Good.

GA: Okay, now we come to your process. This represents your inner process. The inner process is the three of--
SG: Trumps.
GA: The Empress. It's a trump card. Your outer environment, your outer process, the outer world is represented by the twelfth, the hanged man. Another trump. Okay, so let's take your inner. Again, they're balanced because two and one makes three.
SG: [chuckles]
GA: If you draw a card like the tower, and then you draw the chariot, they're complements of each other. Because six and one makes seven. There are cycles in the tarot, numerologically, in astrology, astrologically, there are definite cycles, and this is one cycle. Okay, what you don't deal with in your Empress energy or year comes up in your hanged man year. Everybody goes through a growth year every year. Jane is going through the 10–What was it that I told you, the Wheel of Fortune?
SG: mmhmm
GA: The growth year that you're going through with-- Okay. Okay, you're going through a two-year, the High Priestess, which is another lesbian card.
SG: mmhmm
GA: In your growth year, what you're trying to do is you're trying to balance your independence. People are making demands on you, and they're not giving you your space. The tendency during that year is to either walk out, withdraw, leave. It's either withdraw or leave. A lot of times you probably are gonna feel like doing that. Yes. Also, it's a year where you get in touch with your intuition and your receptivity.
SG: When is that? This, this—
GA: This growth year that you started in, at the time of your birthday, it's going to go from--
SG: The 15th, how about that?

GA: From your birthday to your birthday, you're in a really good space because it's the High Priestess. The karma for that year, the two karma, which is my karma, is being attentive to detail, being of service to others, being organized, efficient, and all the things I'm not. [laughs] It's my karma.
SG: You're kidding.
GA: That's the year you're going to have to get on top of that. How much time can you allow? Okay, and here's where the Empress comes in. The Empress is the card, the energy that says, okay, how much am I going to put out? How much am I going to take in? It's the card of giving and receiving. If you overextend, you get in this position, the hangman. If you underextend, the same thing happens. The thing to look for is your love nature. When you give, are you giving out of the goodness of your heart and out of altruistic feelings? Or are you giving like a bargaining, like a merchandising? I'll give you this much if you give me this much. I will love you this much if you love me this much. This is to watch it. You don't make love to a bargain or merchandise. The Empress is the card of symbolizing the fertility of nature. He comes into you. She's sort of like Venus, Aphrodite, that image, love, but also harmony and balance. Let me see. Nurturing. A lot of nurturing. See the little birds down there?
SG: Yes.
GA: Do you think that's a pelican?
SG: I'm not sure, it could be I think. It doesn't have a lot of--
GA: The symbol for the pelican was the mother cutting open her breast to feed her little bird's blood. It was like this nurturing, almost like. You've got to be careful when you get into nurturing.
SG: That's very good advice. Very good.
GA: A lot of green. The green is like fertility, creativity. There are a lot of magnetic lines. Magnetic lines are curved, feminine. Vertical lines are more aggressive, more masculine, dynamic. My teacher Angie Arrien doesn't like to use feminine and masculine, so she uses dynamic and magnetic. It's the same truth.
SG: Dynamic is the masculine thing? isn't that interesting.
GA: Just a lot of curved lines. Look at the way she holds her arms.

Randy: whispering
GA: Okay, thanks. Randy: unintelligible
GA: See you later. Randy: How are you liking it?
SG: hmm? Randy: is it good?
SG: Oh, it's terrific. Very fun!
GA: You going to the fairies? Randy: I think so [laughs]
SG: See you, Randy, yes. Randy: unintelligbile
GA: David is busy tonight. They never spend any time--

Title: R. Conner tarot cards | Location: Box: 5 | Folder: 12

SG: I'm eating all your sunflower seeds. I hope that's all right.
GA: Oh, I've got plenty more. The business about the Empress is pretty much like the traditional--
SG: What you've said is very good. What you've said is very good. The business about organizing is particularly good.
GA: The number two karma?
SG: Yes, right, all that. Yes.
GA: There's like moon, the crescent moon, symbolizing the feminine.
SG: And the business of watching my sacrificial energy.
GA: Yes.
SG: Good.
GA: Yes, because you'll end up over here like a sacrifice.
SG: This is the sacrifice, right?

GA: Yes. This is the hanged man. Okay, my interpretation of the hanged man is not really the traditional kind. The traditional kind is being fixed and tied and all that to a certain position, which is, in my interpretation, that can happen. But if you look at the card, the man is upside down. There's a snake here. See the eye? It looks like asleep. Unmoving. The man has no hair, and the eyes seem closed. Okay, when a baby doesn't understand something, a lot of times he'll get on his hands and knees and look between his legs. This is what you have to do. You have to turn your perspective upside down.
SG: [chuckles] Wonderful.

GA: Okay, now the man looks like he's got a little hair and his eyes-- The snake seems to have its eye open. In your environment with the people in your office and people you relate with, what you have to do is you have to turn the situation around. You have to look at it with new eyes, from a new perspective. Instead of thinking, "Okay, I'm fixed, I'm tied." I see that you have the potential to awaken the snake, regenerate, transform it. In order to do that, you have to give up your old point of view, and that's the sacrifice. You have to give up your stance and the way you perceive things, and just totally let go of that perception. Turn your head around and look from a different view, and see if you can solve the problem by that. That's basically--
SG: Is this ocean up here? What is this up here?
GA: That's the symbol for wisdom.
SG: The blue?
GA: Yes.
SG: huh…
GA: The blue in most color symbology represents wisdom, serenity. That there's that in you, that potentiality. Then all these little grid things--
SG: What is that? Yeah…
GA: It means that-- This kind of grid is like foundations for buildings for making things. Sometimes before they put--
SG: Concrete.
GA: Yes. Okay, so this just means that it's up to you as to what you fill in, what you create, that the thing to hang you up is your perception.
SG: That's the perception here. Okay.

GA: If you think of something that happened to you in the past, you can't change the past, but you can change your perception of it. This is what that card is about. You've got to give up your stance and your worldview right now, whatever it is. It's a sacrifice. Say you have two potentialities. One, to write a book on spirituality, and the other one to be a very good school administrator or whatever. Okay. In order to do-- You're this tree and you have these two branches. In order for one to flower and blossom, you're going to have to cut back the other. It doesn't mean you're going to kill the tree. It just means you're going to prune. This is the card. What are you going to sacrifice? What branch are you going to? You need to look at your life. This is going to be demanded of you in about 12 weeks. You have between now and 12 weeks.
SG: You're just about right. That would be about the middle of August?
GA: mmhmm
SG: That's when school starts.
GA: mmhmm. You have to give up something.
SG: sighs
GA: I think that the answer might lie in how much you're willing to nurture and give, and how much you're willing to receive. Do you want that to be balanced? If you are going to give to these people, are you going to resent it?
SG: Good.

GA: Okay. Do you have any questions about either one?
SG: No, you're very accurate. It's meaningful.
GA: Do you want some more tea?
SG: I don't think so. I'm in good shape.
GA: Okay
SG: That's rich.

GA: Question 7. I think I'll do these 2 and then the 7.
SG: Okay
GA: This is your test card, your lesson. It's the Ten of Swords Ruin. In 10 weeks, you need to get rid of this pattern. So what you do-- Let me tell you about the pattern first. This is the Sun in Gemini. In Gemini's communication in the twins which is very close to the lovers, being pulled in opposite directions. Sun is just awareness. Here you have all these swords. There's 9. I've never been able to find the 10th sword in here. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. The swords represent thoughts. Your thoughts are piercing your heart. They're wounding your heart. See the little heart there? With thoughts of ruin, of self-ruin. That has to do with communicating something. Consciously dealing with something. It has to do with the Sun in Gemini. It means that 10 years ago or 10 weeks ago, you were wounded. Probably by somebody else, but you took it up and you beat yourself with it. Situations come up where you think, "Oh, it's no use. It's futile. It doesn't do any good." You do this thought number on yourself. If you just will recognize it, that it is just your thoughts. That it is one aspect of yourself and not all of yourself. The hourglass, there's hourglasses here. There's sigils, S-I-G-I-L. They're upside down. Over here is the scales on top. Those are symbols that are pretty much self-explanatory. The hourglass has to do with time. Time running out. You putting a thing on yourself because you didn't do this in time or you didn't do that in time. The scales are like justice and balance and money. It also has to do with money. It's a very simple card. It just means thoughts of self-ruin.

SG: Could it be guilt? Is there any guilt in that card? I'm having a hard time applying it. Everything else is fitting really very nicely. Could that be an unexpected turn?
GA: I think that the test for you is going to have to be it's sort of like, I don't think it's guilt. It's guilt. The guilt that's in it has to do with that you're feeling bad for doing this trip on yourself and then you feel guilty that you should know better than to have these thoughts and entertain these thoughts. The way I see it is just a lot of these thoughts clashing which are symbolized by the broken sword hands and contradictory which is Gemini. The sign of Gemini can be very contradictory. Just like contradictory clashing thoughts in your head and that you might think that you should be able to ward them off or handle them. Sometimes they just get to be too much. It's not a card that I know a whole lot about because it doesn't come up that often. The only thing I can go by are--
SG: It's a warning I think.
GA: yeah
SG: I think it's a warning.

GA: That your breakthrough will come from you letting these thoughts come and not giving them too much energy. It's like when you meditate and you're concentrating on your breath or your mantra, these thoughts come but you don't beat yourself over the head because you can't concentrate or you can't meditate. You just let them come and flow out. Don't give them any mind. Don't give them any energy. That is going to be the test.
SG: Ah I think I--okay…
GA: Does that make sense to you? Because if you get on the other side then it's rebirth and transformation. The rebirth and transformation that were realized by the Princess of Disks and the Queen of Disks. That when you come through this pattern, when you let go of this pattern then the rest will follow through. Because it's your lesson card. A lot of times it's a card to show if you're off your path. The negative cards, there's a cycle to them. They begin with the Three of Swords. Sorrow. Very early in life, we experience grief because of temper tantrums because we can't get things the way we want them. Usually when we're around three years old. You're not getting the attention. You're not getting this. You're not getting that. I'm going to answer that because I think it's--
SG: okay good.

[recording stops and restarts immediately]
GA: Okay, so your breakthrough will come through dealing with the fear of ruin. It's actually fear of ruin.
SG: Did you turn that on?
GA: Let's see.
SG: okay okay
GA: It's actually fear of ruin rather than ruin itself. In this case, it has to do with your creativity. I think it has to do with, I don't think it has to do with Jane because all the cards were pretty good and they were all high cards. It might have to do with your work aspect. Whether you can balance this life between work and creativity and that you feel the fear about maybe you're not doing that, not balancing because there's a Libra of scales. It's this fear.
SG: That's good. That helps.
GA: Anyway to get back to the sword, the three of sorrows is the first card in the negative cycle. There's a progression and they go from swords, cups, wands, and then disks. Most traditional Tarotists, people that read Tarot, they don't have that progression. To me it's the creation, the idea is first thought out. Then it's felt, your emotions get engaged and then you start working on your intuition and the wants and then you bring it to Earth with the disks and that's the progression that I use. First in the head then in the emotion.
SG: Then, the intuition?
GA: Intuition and then-
SG: Ground?
GA: -you manifest it in reality and so this is yet very early. You could nip it in the bud, you know? It's when you get a negative disc that you've gone through all of these repeated--
SG: Yeah, yeah.
GA: You've gone through strife and disappointment, the five of cups and you're going through defeat. The five of swords and you're going, all of these, and there's only 13 negative cards in this deck and you only got one out of 2, 4, 6, 8, out of 10, so that's pretty good.
SG: I'll say.

Tape ends

GA: I will call you if I can think of anything more.
SG: Don't worry about that, Gloria. I think that's up to me to think about. You know?
[pause]
GA: The light, this yellow light, is like clarity trying to break through just--

[End of Recording]

Sally Gearhart: So this is one? Turn it over?
Gloria Anzaldua: Yes. That represents your interaction with Jane. Turn that over. Oh, this represents how you see Jane. This card represents her. This is great. This represents your karmic link or why you came together, what you have to learn from each other. They're beautiful. This represents your career and creativity, the receptivity. Beautiful. This is your decision-making processes, delegating duties and all that. God, you don't have any problems in that respect. The inner environmental process and the outer.
SG: Turn this one over?
GA: It doesn't really matter. In this case reverse just means that there's a greater focus on the card. It's beautiful. This is your outer environment you work with. This represents yourself, your total self in relation to all these questions and who you are and how you see yourself. Beautiful. This is your test, your lesson. What you need to breakthrough or--
SG: With swords! Ten!
GA: That's one negative card out of the whole bunch. Now the last one is the outcome card. Wow. First of all a general look at the cards, you have one, two, three, four, five trump cards. That's very unusual. Trump cards are gifts to you. Even the hangmen their energies had come to you. The royalty you have, one, two, three. The royalties are the cards that represent actually doing and acting on things. The minor arcana are potentials. Things that you can act on. These people really act on them. The queens and the princesses or defenders. The frontal people they face you, they defend. The knights and the princesses are hunters, the more aggressive kind. In your deck there are knights in the Waite deck but there're not any princesses.
SG: That's right.
GA: There're just kings, so you have to make the transition. The negative card represents thoughts or self-rule, that what you do is, you do a mental trip on yourself. The outcome card is the card of synthesis of arcana.
SG: mmh–Look at it. Amazing.

GA: What I want to do is I want to take you through the pattern and beginning with card number one which represents the interaction between you and Jane, and probably between you and the way you interact with most people. This is the queen of disks. This is the lesbian card in this deck. One of the lesbian cards in this deck. She is ruled by Aries, and there's a ram in the picture and that represents moving forward in a new direction. There are horns on her head that extend way out. That means she's looking at the past which is this desert type with an oasis in it, and she is ready to do something about beautifying her environment right now. Make it more statically pleasing. The past is a lesson that-- A process. She's looking at the past to see what she did so that the present could be made more beautiful and it can be learned from. She is the only one in the royalty cards that looks towards the past.
SG: Is that right?
GA: Ah-ha. The horns extend way out, and anything that extends out from the head in symbology represents a large consciousness, enlightenment. For example, you mentioned the star card, her hair goes all the way to the ground. That means enlightenment, consciousness stretched, growth. Helmets in this-- the Hierophant which is your second card and Again in the third card, the princess of disks has the horns. Anything people wear on their heads, helmets, hair, that means it's a process of expanding consciously in your head. She represents the disks which is a card about external reality, finances and health. In this respect she might be looking at, and you in this case might be looking at how-- not only the health of your body but also the health of the relationship in terms of with Jane. You are wanting to bring to earth certain ideas about maybe cleaning up your surroundings emotionally and also physically and it's a step with the diamond and the diamond is also another symbol for external reality for money, for earth, for manifesting. This is a symbol of bringing the power to earth or centering, manifesting whatever you want to call that. The vegetation in the background represents the fertility. Here is a desert with a little oasis, so what you want to do is you want to make the relationship more fertile. The pineapple is a symbol of fertility. Also, the goddess. Do you see the pineapple right here?
SG: mmhmm! I realize that.
GA: She is wearing a vest of, made of little coins. That means you're going to have abundance. They do have the potential to have an abundance in health and also in material wellbeing with Jane, and with the other people that you relate to. She's wearing two bracelets. In ancient Egypt if you had one bracelet it meant something. If you had two, it meant something else. If you had one up here, it meant-- They designated that the hierarchy of the teachers or how evolved the teachers were, so here both risks have bracelets. This is a highly evolved card. Mature, Very mature. Very aware of what's going on and also very centered and very tranquil, and nothing is going to sweep her off her feet. She's like real centered, content, she knows what she wants, she knows herself and she's just like emotionally there.
SG: Good! Good.
GA: Basically the message is to do something aesthetically pleasing about your surroundings and take care of your health and also maybe go out and buy a dress or cut your hair. It's a card that says it's time to beautify your-- or get something for her to do that. Do you have any questions about this card?
SG: No. That's a terrific reading. I had, you know…

GA: Well, the queen of disks is a very special lady.
SG: You see it as the lesbian card?
GA: I see it's one of the lesbian cards.
SG: One of the lesbian cards.
GA: In this deck, it's the lesbian card
SG: How about that?
GA: and in your deck it's the queen of pentacles.

SG: It's interesting that you talk about it being Aries, because both Jane and I are Aries. Sounds nice. I have a moon in Aries [unintelligible]
GA: The best time for you to beautify your surroundings or look at your past and maybe do something about your health is during the time of Aries.
SG: That's when I did it.
GA: Ah, Okay.
SG: [laughs] I did change on April 9th, this past year. It's really significant that you should say that.
GA: Yes. Well, you're ready to push in the new direction because of the ram.
SG: On health, and on--
GA: On health, on the relationship, on making your home more pleasing aesthetically. Whatever your environment is, maybe your office. That's Aries for you.
SG: Good.
GA: Moving forward.
SG: Good!

GA: This card represents Jane to you, or how you see Jane.
SG: [laughs].
GA: This is the card of the hierophant, and it's the card of teaching and learning. Especially around occult mysteries. Do you know what her birthday is by any chance?
SG: Yes. April 14th.
GA: Okay. January. February. March. April 14 of what year?
SG: 1941.
GA: Ooh, she's a lovers too, like you.
SG: Is she?
GA: I was wondering. I was trying to see may-- Because some people in their numerology. For example, I'm a double lover, but in my numerology, I have two double sevens and a double nine, the hermit and chariot. Sometimes people are in a growth year that is erected to this card. The number five, or that five years ago, something happened between the two of you.
SG: It was our-- Yes, exactly [laughs]. That's wonderful. That's very fun. Very fun.
GA: What I want to do is, I want to figure out what her growth year is. It's amazing. Two lovers living together, double lovers. It works, huh?
SG: Actually, we don't live together.
GA: Well, being lovers. I wonder if it would work if you lived together.
SG: I wonder too. We wonder together.

GA: No, her growth year is 10. The wheel of fortune. She's going through the wheel of fortune. Anyway, the hierophant is-- The person represented by the hierophant is very much concerned with family. She has a lot to do with a male person in her life. Could be her father. When she resolves certain things with that male person or that authority figure, she will own up to her leadership.
SG: Would you say that again, louder, I want to play this tape for Jane right now?
[laughter]
GA: No. I can't.
SG: No, no, no. I'm teasing about that, but that's important, Gloria. That's good.
GA: That's important. I think it's picking up pretty good.
SG: Good.

GA: A child or children also are very important in her life. When she interacts with a child, she will come to terms with her innate child as her spontaneity or childlike nature. There will be a child, either a neighbor's, or maybe she'll be in the bus and she'll see a child in the bus or in the park, maybe a niece, or somebody. There'll be a child that will trigger that in her, of owning her childlike innocence and playfulness.
The child will represent Horace, like the father represented Osiris. Isis in this picture is a contemporary woman. The man was older, the child was younger. Isis is a contemporary woman and someone that's close to her age. This woman will open up vistas in the occult, in maybe tarot or the i ching, or maybe a reading that she had. Some psychic thing will be mirrored to her by a contemporary woman who's into the occult, or into the mysteries, or spirituality. When she recognizes that woman, then it's like recognizing her potential to get into the occult and her inner spirituality. Basically, this is the part of the family of Osiris, Isis, and Horace the baby. Isis is down here, holding a sword between her thighs. Isis is represented by the hierophant and Horace is the five-pointed star.
SG: Got you.

GA: Five years ago, something unique happened in your relationship. The hierophant is ruled by Taurus, so there might be a lot of victim. What's funny?
SG: Well, that's actually when we met. Was five years ago on May 1st, which is Taurus. Right?
GA: Yes.
SG: Not when we met, but when we--
GA: When you--?
SG: When we first really got together in any kind of a sexual way.
GA: Ah, okay, well then, that's the high-energy time for you. That's usually the best time for learning, teaching situations. The learning teaching situations don't have to be just about the occult. They can be sexual or personal or emotional or intellectual, but this is the energy of bringing to you those things that teach. You usually teach what you want to learn. There are four other times during the year when this potential comes through the most. This is during Scorpio the eagle, Aquarius the man, Taurus the bull, and Leo the lion. Those are the four times that are very-- what is the word? Propitious.
SG: Propitious.
GA: Propitious.
SG: Good.

GA: This bull here and this bull here mean the ability to manifest, to bring to earth, to complete whatever activities that she starts because this represents her, or that's how you see her. Because Taurus is really-- it's not just planning, and it's not just dreaming and thinking about things. It's really doing, really carrying it through. It's earthing it. There's three Earths, Virgo, Taurus, and Capricorn, and of those three, the Taurus is the sign that really does manifest things.
SG: It's fixed.
GA: Fixed. So that she's got that potential. The elephant. See the elephant over here? The elephant--
SG: hah. Two of them. Is it two? Yes.
GA: Yes. They had to do with hearing. With a sense of hearing. A symbol for that and also for long memories. These snails here. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, means that she's been pierced by five. How many did I say?
SG: Nine.
GA: By nine situation, people, events, whatever, that have been very instrumental in transformations for her and breakthroughs. The snake represents regeneration and rebirth. These memories of our experiences or lessons, whatever they are, she has the ability to go through them and be transformed. The symbol of the snake. The dove is the symbol of wisdom, peace. Wisdom if the little bird is carrying an olive twig. I don't think there's an olive twig here, so this is just peace and love. This thing in the background. One, two, three, four, five, it just represents all of the perceptions, mental, emotional, spiritual. And the key?
SG: mmhmm
GA: represents the key to knowledge, to the wisdom that you, through a teaching learning situation you can acquire. Then also bringing to earth, the two fingers. The orange color is the second chakra color, which is healing. It's the color of healing. Healing and renewal. There's also some red, which is a lot of energy, fashion. Isis is holding a bow in her hand, and it's the crescent moon. That's symbolizes the unconscious, the subconscious. Do you have any questions about this?

SG: It's very rich.
GA: Yes, a lot of symbols.
SG: I had thought of the Hierophant as being a very disciplined, ordered card, at least from the Waite deck. That's what is represented in the social orders, social hierarchies. This reading is very different. That's good.
GA: I can't think of anything else to add.
SG: Good. Good, Gloria.
GA: Usually I will after you leave. I usually call my people up and say, oh I just--
SG: Thought of something about this!

GA: [laughs] This is your karmic link.
SG: With Jane. Together?
GA: Yeah. This is the pregnant lady in the deck. She is the princess of disks. She has gone, walked up the top of the mountain, gone through the briar patch. All those are obstacles that she has left behind, so that in your relationship, with obstacles, unresolved karma, whatever it was that you had to do together, you have done pretty much. You're in the clear. You're out of the woods, so to speak. The briars, the branches, those represent obstacles that you've gone through. That the both of you have gone through. Again, the Aries, moving forward, the Aries horns, the ram horns, moving forward with awareness.
There's a snake, and she's carrying it on her shoulders, and it looks like a cloak and it's asleep. She's near getting ready to do this transformation, to give birth to a new identity. Because this represents your karmic link, both of you are getting ready to-- I guess to exhibit new parts of your personality that working through these things has freed. That you can now be more yourself, that you can be a new part of yourself that you hadn't been able to be with her, because you've worked through all these things.
The long braids go all the way to the ground, which again, like the staff with the diamond at the end, represent bringing to earth, achieving, completing, manifesting. The braids are sort of tight on top and then more loose on the bottom. It's sort of like a symbol for the tightness of the structure of, I guess the relationship with the karmic link. You know like, I'm loosening it up a little, and the braids are coming undone.
The other symbol for earthing is the pedestal, because she's touching the pedestal with her body, and it goes all the way to the ground, and that is a symbol like the staff. Anything that goes from above to below means bringing down energy, manifesting, earthing. She's holding a yin-yang symbol in her disk, in her hand. The yin-yang symbol is vertical, so it means interchange. When it's horizontal, it means change in the environment. Vertical means inner."
SG: Inside ourselves or inside the relationship?
GA: Inside the karmic link between the two of you. I guess it's inside both of you, since both of you make the link. Disks is the symbol for the wheel of fortune also, for you've got things in control. You've got a handle on it. This represents, again, the disks, health, external environment, and money, abundance. It's the earth symbol. She's a very unusual lady, because look at her eyes. She's sort of like three-dimensional. I don't know.
SG: The eyes remind me of the queen in Snow White. She reminds me of the wicked stepmother, actually. What's the background Gloria?
GA: Would you like some--?
SG: Yes, I would love. What's the background? Is it mountains?
GA: Yes, she's walked through the mountains. It's been a long, hard struggle, a journey. She's gone through the dark forest.
SG: Is that still a cloak? Is all that still the cloak that she's got there?
GA: That's part of the snake.
SG: Is that still a snake?
GA: That means that the regenerative powers are very great, transformative powers. Either it means that you're going to give birth to a project that's financially rewarding, or you're going to give birth to a new identity. Since the question is about the karmic link, it seems to me that the new identity applies, but I'm not sure.
SG: That's good. For sure it's not financial. [laughs] I don't see that at all. It must be the other.
GA: Yes. She looks a little tired. It's been a long haul.
SG: Mm-hmm. That's good.

GA: Okay. Do you have any questions about these three?
SG: The third one is the karmic link. The second one, the Hierophant, is how I see her, my perception of her. That is love.
GA: The interaction between the two.
SG: The interaction. Okay.
GA: Mostly yours, yes.
SG: Is there any connection between these two, the interaction and the karmic link?
GA: Yes, and I'll tie it up when I get there. Hi, Randy. You want to come in? Randy: [unintelligible]
GA: Okay. Thanks. Randy: [unintelligible]
GA: Okay, before you leave, will you call the owl and the monkey? Thanks. Okay, the next thing I want to take up is your creativity and your career.

SG: You give a good, long reading. Am I taking too long?
GA: No, this is the usual. These three cards I use to tie in. This is the nine of disks and its game. It's ruled by-- It's a card of Libra, I'm Libra. Venus and Virgo, which is my card because my Venus is in Virgo. Okay, the woman that made the cards was named Frieda Harris. She had a very unusual relationship with Crowley in that they weren't lovers or anything, but they had a very close bond. Crowley was lovers with Ricardie at that time. Ricardie was very, very jealous. Very, very jealous of Crowley's relationship with Frieda Harris. Frieda Harris realized it was a karmic thing she had going with Crowley. She had no power in the relationship. The only thing she could do was represent it in the cards, so she did this. There's a card-- a coin to represent each of the three. She had, one of her pet names for Crowley was the king. One of his pet names for her was the queen, or the princess or something like that. Anyway, she put Ricardie and Crowley up here showing that their relationship had prominence. It was more important. That her thing was synthesizing the information she was getting from Crowley and putting it into the cards. Her thing was resolving all these past life karma and stuff. She really knew that hers was not the most important relationship. It was very difficult for her. Very very difficult for her. She had suffered great pain. This card she named Gain, because she had gained from this experience. It's a very-- If you look at it carefully, there's a picture of a bullseye and hitting the mark and she did that, and that's how she saw her relationship with Crowley despite all of the things. What this card represents is your receptivity, the feminine nature of, aspect of your nature, how you receive information, is very much on the mark, very much. You're very much able to do it. If you center yourself and concentrate on it, you can get there. You can make a bullseye or whatever it's called. To do this, you need to take into account your love nature, the Venus aspect that the way you relate to people and the way you-- Como se dice? You cannot divorce your personal--

[Tape Stops]

[End of Recording]

[Tape starts]
Joyce Lierberman: -out of the pathway. I don’t know if you can hear anything if it's that loud [inaudible]
Gloria Anzaldúa: Well if not, I’ll just erase it.

JL: Are your hands always this terribly hot?
GA: Um, no I think–I had a hysterectomy, so I get hot flashes once in a while. And I think I’m having one right now. I’m not sure though. But usually they are warm.
Lieberman asks Anzaldúa about past injuries to two of her fingers. Anzaldúa responds that they may have been sprained but never broken.
JL: Has anything happened with these two fingers?
GA: No they’ve never been broken.
JL: They have always been like this.
GA: Yes. This one I think I hurt or sprained. But both of those [inaudible]

[long pause] [conversations in background]

JL: When did you have your hysterectomy, Gloria?
GA: March 20th of last year.
JL: March 20th of last year.
GA: Over six months ago.
JL: And that changed the temperature of your body did it?
GA: I get-Have hormone imbalance so that. I get hot flashes and I’m taking some herbs for it, but its been hard lately. [inaudible]

[long pause] [conversations in background] [Anzaldúa adjusts her chair]

JL: Are you left handed or right handed?
GA: I’m right handed, but when I was little I was switched over to right.
JL: But you were originally left?
GA: I think originally I was probably ambidextrous, but I remember writing with my left hand and my teacher telling me to write with my right hand.

[long pause]

JL: Before your hysterectomy, had you had any other hormonal difficulties whatsoever like thyroid deficiency or because I’m picking that up.
GA: From the time I was 3 months old I was [bleeding?] on my diaper.
JL: Yeah, so there’s always been a hormonal imbalance of some kind.
GA: It’s only now that I’m getting it balanced out.

[long pause]

JL: You have such a need to guard your good name and your reputation.
GA: I have that need?
JL: Yes ma'am. No matter what it seems like. You are a very proud person.
GA: Very. That’s why I’m afraid I’m gonna fall. Pride comes before a fall.
JL: You’re very proud and you’re very easily hurt and you don’t like people to know it. And in addition to which, you have a great need to go your own way. At the same time that you have a great need to go your own way, you’ve felt so bound by so many things that it has made you very angry. [long pause] How old are you Gloria?
GA: um, let’s see- 37? I have to count backward.
JL: Life is becoming more and more open for you. It’s going to open much more ready to you in the next 10 years, but it’s already begun. It began in about three, four years ago. Things started happening.
GA: That’s correct.
JL: [inaudible]
GA: How can you tell it was three years ago? Which lines? Any particular ones?
JL: Well, I can’t find the time to give you a lesson and a reading right now. You know, but if you leave your address when I give lessons if I decide to [inaudible]
GA: I would like that, yes.

JL: You know, cause, uh-[long pause] Now you have, you know, you have quite a bit of fire in you, and some earth, and some water is mixed. What is your sign?
GA: Uh, Libra, but I have a lot of earth though
JL: Oh, yeah, right, cause in no way is this an air hand, in the world.
GA: In no way its what? Air?
JL: It's not an air hand. And a libra is air, but you have- what’s your ascendant?
GA: My ascendant is sagittarius.
JL: There’s the fire.
GA: And my moon is Aries.
JL: More fire. See now that’s actually a fire hand. Essentially its a fire hand with some–You have a paramount water placement somewhere, I don’t know where it is. But its essentially fire. See one hand is more fire, the other hand is more earth. No, that’s not true. There’s essentially a fire hand.
GA: I have quite a bit of earth in my chart, so-
JL: Yeah. See it’s very interesting. [inaudible] It would be very interesting to know when that switch over with the hands came. Because there’s an extraordinary amount of difference in your hands. Even given the proportion of differences in all hands.
GA: I think it must have come like around when I was seven?

JL: See you were born into a lot of difficulty. Right off the bat.
GA: Yes
JL: A lot. Was there difficulty at home? As well as your own health? Poverty?
GA: Yeah, poverty and
JL: Fighting sickness? What?
GA: Sickness, um, just a lot of difficulty. My father died very early and I always had problems with my uterus, hormones, my period.

JL: Listen, you’re lucky to be here.
GA: Am I?
JL: I mean, you’re here. You’re pretty healthy.
GA: I’ve come close to death a whole lot of times
JL: I know. You’re a strong lady-
GA: This- I broke that and the wrist bone. Two, three years ago.
JL: At this point you are right-handed though, right?
GA: Yes. I do not-I can’t write with my left hand anymore. I can do some heavy things, but mostly the fine things I have to do with my right hand.

JL: Well, you've had plenty of pain in your life, I’ll tell you. But you have plenty of native energy. You have plenty of energy, you have plenty of stamina, and you can take a hell of a lot.
GA: Yes
JL: And I wanna tell you something, you can give a hell of a lot too. You can be a bitch on wheels.
GA: Yes. Well sometimes I think I’m not allowing my intuition and my power, my energy to flow. Like I feel stopped up.

JL: You are. But you’ve been through a lot and that’s the truth. And there’s enormous energy in this hand, I promise you. I mean, enormous energy. There’s enormous energy in this hand, and in your hands. Now this one has a lot more stability. I mean, you survived a lot of stuff. That’s just all there is to it, you really have. [long pause] Up to about your 18th year, things were pretty hairy. And you did get some relief. And when I say 18, I mean 27, and maybe 19 and through--
GA: In between?
JL: Yeah. that period though was [inaudible]. Somehow you managed to get free and live freer than you had been.
GA: I started leaving home.
JL: At what time?
GA: About 19. I left for a year.
JL: But your plan, you were thinking of it before, weren’t you?
GA: Yes, I’d been planning
JL: And at 19 you left?
GA: I came back a year later but it was like a different world.
JL: Where’d you go to?
GA: I went about 800 miles away. Clear across the state of Texas.
JL: To where?
GA: To a little town named Denton, north of Dallas.
JL: But at least you were near a good place.
GA: Yes, I started going to a university there.

JL: You see, what had happened is you always wanted to leave.
GA: I always wanted to leave
JL: But you couldn’t get away.
GA: No.
JL: Finally you did. But you always wanted to.
GA: Yes, I still want to. I wanna move to the east coast. I’ve been here three years and I’m ready to go.
JL: Where were you before this three years?
GA: Um, I was in Indiana. I was working with the migrant programs in Indiana.

JL: You have enormous amounts of power. Energy. And warmth. Very warm person. A very warm person. A great deal to give. And, uh, I tell you, you don’t show a lot. You try to not show a lot of what you’ve been through and a tremendous amount of pain. But, you’ve got a lot of growth out of it. See part of you is like a fireball. You make your mind up about things real quick. You’re as stubborn as an ox. You move like a tank
GA: [laughs] yeah
JL: On the other hand, you know, there’s a lot inside of you that feels real fragile and wants at all costs not to be hurt.
GA: Yes, but I’m very vulnerable around relationships.
JL: Who is not? I’ll tell you, youre a very powerful lady. And you have enormous will and determination. Enormous. You have enormous will and determination. It’s true. It’s just there. And that I promise you.

GA: Yeah, I made up my mind I was gonna be a writer and uh, its been very hard. Writing is very hard.
JL: Oh yeah.
GA: I just feel like I have more energy that I’m stopping, you know. That I’m stopping it up. That I’m not using my energy. Cause I feel very frustrated.
JL: Well, maybe you dont hold still long enough and you don’t stay quiet long enough. You’re driven.
GA: Yes.
JL: And I’d like to see you slow down. I’d like to see you talk less. I’d like to see you pause more. For you! I’m not talking in the terms of this.
GA: For me.
JL: That will give you a chance to un-dam. See, you ride yourself like you're a horse.
GA: Yeah, yeah.

JL: And it won’t take you as fast as other things will. [long pause] I tell you this much, you probably have pretty much a [inaudible] as though it all sort of fell out of the sky. Or you made a lot of mistakes. A lot of wrong moves. I think a lot of it was in the books.
GA: I had lessons to learn.
JL: A lot of it is in the books, really. Essentially, you’re a hedonist. Very strong passions. And very strong needs.

GA: You don’t think I could also be like a nun type? Ascetic? Some people think I’m too nun-like.
JL: I don’t think you’re nun-like at all. Even if you haven’t screwed in 28 years. I don’t think youre nun-like at all. You know, I’m not talking about whether you’re Black or not, or whether you’re celibate or not. I’m talking about an attitude toward life, and how you feel, and how you think isn’t necessarily what people are seeing.
GA: Right
JL: Cause you hide a lot.
GA: I hide a lot.
JL: And I think that your needs are not of the nun-ly sort, if you want me to be honest with you.
GA: I’ve always felt a little bit like that, but its sort of like egotistic to think that I think for me. But hearing somebody else say it-
JL: Why is that egotistical? I mean, you can be very giving, and give yourself to a cause, and have passions that are very strong. Because you do have them. You decide to let them out in a socially militant way, rather than a sexual way, that’s your need, or your choice, or your defense or whichever way you choose to look at that. This hand is full of animal energy, and I think would like a great deal of sensation out of that.
GA: Yes

JL: Whether you get it or not is another thing. Whether you avail yourself of it-excuse me- or not is another thing. You’re a very bright woman. Did you know?
GA: No [laughs]
JL: You have plenty of good intelligence. And its important for you to develop it.
GA: The intelligence?

JL: mmhmm, yes. [long pause] Turn your hands up this way for me? [long pause] Have you ever been deeply in love?
GA: In love? I think once.
JL: Did the person know it?
GA: Yes.
JL: Did anything come of it?
GA: No.
JL: The person wasn’t interested?
GA: Scared.
JL: So, this fell to the wayside?
GA: No, we’re friends. It’s hard on me though. It’s very hard.
JL: How long ago was it?
GA: It’s been about, um, six years?
JL: So you were about 31?
GA: Yes. Sometimes I’m not sure what love is. I don’t think–sometimes I think I’m not-I’ve never been in love. I mean I know what love is, but I don’t know what “in love” is. Do you know what I mean?
JL: So the person was not in love with you?
GA: I think he is, but he is a gay man, and he has a gay lover.
JL: You don’t need that
GA: I don’t need that. And I think we both feel that way about each other, but it’s not the right situation.
JL: No, I mean, if he’s a gay man, he’s going to want to make love to a man, instead of a woman, don’t you think?
GA: Oh, yeah.

JL: Did you know that you can love women very much too, also? Very strongly?
GA: yeah mmhmm. I consider myself a lesbian
JL: Do you?
GA: Mmhmm. But I love all kinds of people.
JL: Mmhmm. Have you had relationships with women?
GA: No
JL: [inaudible]
GA: The last one I had was two years ago. It’ll be two years ago in January. He was a man.
JL: You’ve never had a relationship with a woman?
GA: No

JL: Why do you consider yourself a lesbian?
GA: Because, um, I don’t define a lesbian just as somebody who makes love to a woman. I define lesbian as a woman who loves women. And I have felt attractions towards two women, but they were, one was also scared off, and the other was–already had a lover.
JL: Did they know how you felt?
GA: The first one did. The second one I never said anything to her, but I think she guessed, cause we still are very loving to each other.
JL: Are you frightened at, uh-Are you frightened to ask for a relationship?
GA: Yes. I think I am. Well I think that I am. I think as soon as I say I am frightened that the opposite is also true that I’m not. I’m just very picky. I’m very particular. And I just think that I’m waiting, or I’m [inaudible]. That I have certain ideals? That are very hard to meet? And, uh
JL: You need a lot of love. And you need a lot of warmth. And everyone does, and you in particular. You also need outlets for your energy. That is just extremely important that you work with people in a loving way. And in a worthy way. But you do that dont you?

GA: I teach.
JL: I was gonna get to that. Lift your hands up again please. See you work with words?
GA: I teach writing, meditation-anything that has to do with writing. That facilitates getting deeper within.
JL: It’s strong in your hands, I’ll tell ya. It’s a good thing for you to be doing.
GA: Words are strong in my hands?
JL: Communications. Very strong. Very strong. Any interest in the sciences or in purely communication?
GA: No, I love the sciences. I love to read about biophysics
JL: That whole Mercury constellation is so strong in your hand. And, uh
GA: I wanted to be a doctor.
JL: Yeah, I see you have a condusis–that’s real strong in you and you you should be working with people.

GA: You think I should be working with healing?
JL: Yes
GA: Types of healing?
JL: Types of healing, and that could be through communication. That could be through loving. That can be through nursing. It could be through caring in some way. Social work. You know all kinds of manifestations could that take. Where do you teach here?
GA: I teach journal writing at State. San Francisco State. And I teach, uh--
JL: What's your last name?
GA: Creative writing worksh--Anzaldúa.
JL: Ah-zal-du-ah?
GA: Anzaldúa
JL: Anzaldúa
GA: I teach creative writing.
JL: What’s “anzal” mean?
GA: It’s a basque word. The Basque provinces.
JL: Is “dua” from “two”?
GA: An-zal-dua-No, I think that the Basques have an entirely different language in the Indo-European-
JL: You are Basque?
GA: My ancestors. Basque and Spanish and Mayan and Aztec-
JL: Whatever?
GA: All–I’m a mongrel.

JL: So you teach at State?
GA: Journal writing. In the Feminist, uh, Women’s studies.
JL: Do you have–how many degrees do you have? Do you have a degree?
GA: mmhmm Two? I almost have my PhD. But I didn’t stay for the–I didn’t finish my dissertation.
JL: I told you you were intelligent. You didn’t seem to know it. Don’t you think that’s strange?
GA: No, well a lot of people have PhDs and they're not that intelligent.
JL: But you are. You have fierce determination. That you know, don’t you?
GA: Yes. I have a vision.
JL: Are you very close to the feminist movement? At state?
GA: No. I’ve laways been sort of a-I don’t know what the word is–I don’t ever follow any kind of doctrine. But I have my own philosophy and my own religion.
JL: Believe me, you’ve had plenty of protection in your life.
GA: From whom?
JL: Just from whatever. [inaudible] You’ve just been protected. I’m telling you.
GA: mmhmm

JL: And in very difficult times round your 24th, 25th, 26th year. What was going on between 24 and 26 or 23 and 26?
GA: I had finished school and I started teaching and I had several romantic involvements and uh-
JL: Did they come to anything?
GA: No they didn’t come to anything
JL: Were they one-sided?
GA: Yeah. Not-there wasn’t any interest on my part beyond, you know, beyond sexual intimacy.
JL: Did they want it?
GA: Yeah.
JL: Did you have sexual intimacy?
GA: mmhmm Yes.
JL: I though you said you didn’t have any–you didn’t–no you said you weren’t in love. But you have had quite a few sexual encounters?
GA: No, not quite a few. About 3 that were relatively, well at least longer than 6 months, and then one that didn’t last but a few months.
JL: I think your needs are quite great in that direction. You should try to have fun.
GA: I’m probably starved [laughs]

JL: Well-yeah. I really feel you’ve tried to guard yourself, but at the same time not to be so afraid that you don’t allow people to see how you feel. Because like everybody, of course you don’t want to be hurt. Essentially, from about your 24th through your 28th year, you were sort of on a path, a particular path, and at about 28 or 29, around that time, there was a slight divergence and you started threading along another path. Which was [inaudible].
GA: [inaudible]?
JL: Well close to. Not totally different, but it was in the same path. It did take a shift.
GA: A detour.
JL: Yeah
GA: And now I’m back on the original?
JL: Yeah--well wait a minute.
GA: Okay. [laughs] Sorry.
JL: [inaudible] and you're–on that same path now, that youve been on since that revision since you were 28, 29, 27, whenever that was. And that’s gonna carry you through about until you’re 46th year. Give or take a year. When you will be moving in three paths, like a prong.
GA: Wow [laughs]. Is that possible to do?
JL: Why not? There are gonna be three possibilities there. In other words, what I’m saying to you, in your 46th year or so, give or take a year, there will be another either career or moral, or interior decision where you’re going to have to revise and revamp again. And where you will.
GA: Those are always painful.
JL: Well, they’re always interesting too aren’t they?
GA: Yes
JL: Um, I think that you’ve got a lot of power in that hand, and a lot of ability to love and a lot of needs. I don’t think you’re made like a nun at all. I want you to know that. I think that other people decide, but don’t let them decide for you. Don't let them look at you and decide you should be a nun. You look at you and decide what you want to be.
GA: Yes.

JL: Any questions you want to ask me?
GA: I wanna ask you about my Jupiter finger.
JL: Alright
GA: People think it's very abnormal [laughs]
JL: Well I think that's due to the endocrine malfunction. Unless do other people have these kind of configurations or is it just you?
GA: I think there's a slight resemblance in one of my brothers because his palm is [inaudible] but mine is like very ag--very, um

JL: Has this been of value to you?
GA: This has been a very good reading.
JL: Have you had any palm readings before?
GA: Um I had a woman named Elena who goes around town doing it. But very--just like five minute things. But I've always been interested in palms. I want to take a workshop.
JL: Do!
GA: I'm also very interested in tarot, in I Ching-
JL: Well you just generally have a lot of interest in the occult. And pursue your interests, because you have a tremendous amount of intelligence and-energy. And it should be used.
GA: Okay
JL: I hope I have given you something to work with and you have somehting you came for.
GA: Yes
JL: Your direction is deifnitely with people and with things and with serving.
GA: My destiny is the lovers [inaudible] Number 6 [inaudible]
JL: And, uh, don't let other people determine for you what your needs are.
GA: Alright, thank you.
JL: Do I have your card?
GA: Yes. It's right there.
JL: Thank you.
[Recording Stops]

[Start of Recording] Gloria Anzaldúa: You want me to take off my rings?
Tamara Diaghilev: No. Okay—have you ever had your palm read?
GA: Uh, yes—once.
TD: Are you right-handed or left-handed?
GA: I'm right-handed, but I was ambidextrous when I was little.
TD: Okay. I always read both hands.
GA: [inaudible]
[long pause]

TD: What I want to say is you have real, real--very, very interesting palms, first of all [GA laughs], because of many reasons. One, is that you came into this lifetime with pretty heavy [inaudible]--pretty heavy karma in this lifetime and you've already totally taken care of it.
GA: Totally?
TD: Yep. You've worked off what you had to work off and I'll tell you why. Uh, you see the difference in the two palms?
GA: mmhmm
TD: This one be much more complicated than this one. This one you're really clearing up. You're really taking charge of your life in this lifetime. You're really, really clearing up--just look at the difference. The clarity of this palm. Compared to this. Like this is a heavy palm on that level. In other words, much more stuff to work out. You conscioulsy made the decision of handling life in this lifetime. Not being a child of fate. This is just wonderful. I'd love to take your palm prints [GA laughs] because that's so vividly illustrated, you know? [Inaudible] And you're greatest accomplishement in this lifetime by the way is really going to, uh, is really going to be what I call a "creatress of realities." Because you really are not a child of fate. You barely have a fate line in this hand. Which is very, very good you see.
GA: mmhmm
TD: But even here, you're already had chosen when you came in--I wouldn't be surprised if this might be your last incarnation [inaudible].
GA: [laughs] Okay
TD: Or one of the--If its not your last, you don't have too many to go through anymore. You might want to check [inaudible]. There's not much-

Diaghilev discusses Anzaldúa's health, describing better health in this lifetime, compared to past incarnations. Diaghilev tells Anzaldúa she was born into family dependency and has chosen to become an "independent spirit," making a conscious effort to disengage from family to pursue her own goals.

TD: Okay! You defintely are a writer. You have two writer's loops in your hand.
GA: Oh, really? Where?
TD: See these finger prints here?
GA: uh huh
TD: These are writer's loops. So one one level and since you have two of them--
GA: [laughs]
TD: Okay so do you know anything about palmistry first of all?
GA: Very little.
TD: Do you know the mounds?

Demonstrating on Anzaldúa's hand, Diaghilev points out the the location of each mound and its significance: Jupiter (public life), Saturn (inner life), Apollo (creativity), Mercury (communication), Lunar (inspiration and love of beauty), Venus (passion and love), Positive and Negative Mars (energetic balance). Diaghilev says Anzaldúa's hands show that she used to have a temper. Anzaldúa laughs and says she still does. Diaghilev tells Anzaldúa she has been better equipped balance her temper as she has cleared her throat and heart chakras. Diaghilev goes on to describe the lines of the hand: Life Line (physical life and health), Head Line (career and intellect), and Love Line/Heart Line (love).

TD: Then, here you have a Line of Apollo--your Sun Line--and you were born with tremendous talents. However, what I want to say is that, here, like your--this is like your Talent Line, your Sun Line--it's the most powerful up here. That means that once you're really gonna be successful, it's just gonna go straight ahead. And I'll show you the difference in my hands. Mine stops at the head, and then it continues up here.
GA: But it's interrupted right there?
TD: But--it's interrupted and I'll tell you why. Because, although on some level I always wanted to be an artist, you know? I never--I always limited my creativity. I never was quite good enough, you know? I really wanted to be a painter, but I became an art historian and an archaeologist because I said, "Well, I'm not talented enough."
GA: But your creativity is in being psychic.
TD: Oh it's in teaching, sure. But I didn't know this until I limited my creativity with my head.
GA: Ahh, sí. They're very different from mine.
TD: Yeah, yeah.

GA: And what's this? Empowerment?
TD: That's my line of fate.
GA: Of fate.
TD: And then here is my mystic cross. That is my work as a psychic. Usually people who are professional psychics have this cross [inaudible].
GA: I don't have [inaudible]
TD: [inaudible] Yeah, you have it in this hand. You see? Yeah, you have it in this hand. Yeah. But you could use it [inaudible]. Anytime the four corners here connect to the two lines, that means you have professional qualities.
GA: [inaudible]
TD: But it's not in this one. No, but in other words you were born with this ability.
GA: mmh
TD: Now, um, it is in this one, it's just not as prominent. See?
[sound of vehicle engine in background]
GA: See this corner doesn't touch.
TD: Yeah. So what that means is you'll always be psychic. you'll always use that psychic ability, but you're probably gonna use it more for the expression of writing, see? Than become professional psychic. You know-in other words you're gonna use it--especially here, it's like, its connected and kind of goes up. There's that connection with your Sun line. You can see it goes like this..

GA: Okay, what--this line is the fate line? No--the power? What--
TD: Yeah. No-Okay here you have--this is your line of Mercury. That's your line of communication. Not everybody has this line. This line is like your special talent. And out of your communication ability comes your fate line. So your fate is really--okay, it's your destiny to be a communicator-
GA: To communicate.
TD: Yes, yeah. Yeah. Okay, now here--your writer's loops are--on this level it's between Mercury and Apollo. That means you can use your creativity and writing to make money with it. Another level--there's another part of your writing which is much more philosophical. And that might not sell as well, you see. But you have both and you'll be published in both. On both levels you're gonna be published. And you're very philosophical type.
GA: I'm working on a book called El Libro de la Vida. The Book of Life, and its like that.
TD: Ohh, okay, okay, yeah. And it will also sell but its not gonna be like--that book is only gonna be like for the special people, you know. And then, the other ability you have to put something out in the universe is gonna be a big seller. Two--okay, there are two ways you're gonna write, right? It's not that there are two ways you're gonna write, but two different products, in other words. One is gonna be a big seller, gonna make big money with it. The other one may not make as much money but it's gonna be--that's gonna touch people's hearts.
GA: It's like this one is gonna have a wide audience, and this one is gonna have a kind of limited audience.
TD: Yeah, yeah.
Anzaldúa and Diaghilev continue discussing her potential literary success.

TD: Now-I would like to tell you that you're definitely gonna come out, lady.
[both laughing]
TD: It's in your hand. That's this line--
GA: Well I'm out, but I'm not out.
TD: I know, that's what I mean, you know-there's no way that you're not gonna complete this.
GA: uh huh
TD: In other words if you ever have a doubt, just look at your hand.
GA: Where is it?
TD: It's gonna happen [inaudible]
GA: Where is it in my hand?
TD: [inaudible] [sound of church bell striking in background]
[Tape stops and recording begins again] [church bells ringing in the background]
Diaghilev tells Anzaldúa about three significant relationships in her future, with one very important person entering her life in her early 40s. Anzaldúa sounds excited by this.
[traffic sounds in the background]
GA: Does lesbian's hands differ from straight hands?
TD: Yes, I'll show you.
Diaghilev shows Anzaldúa where her hands indicate that she is a lesbian. Diaghilev then shows her own hand to Anzaldúa for comparison. Diaghilev tells Anzaldúa that she herself was "bisexual for a long time."

Diaghilev tells Anzaldúa she will settle on another continent to finish out her life. Anzaldúa is excited to hear that she will get to enjoy many long trips. Diaghilev instructs Anzaldúa not to worry about being able to afford travel because it will come to her.

TD: Oh, look at all these heal--these are all healing lines. You're really a healer. You really can heal. Part of your work, of course is also to heal [inaudible] and heal women, you know? On another level than maybe the physical healing. Heal women through raising their consciousness level, you know?

GA: Sí. I was told that before. That my task was to intercede to the Earth on behalf of its children of the Earth.
TD: Yeah yeah. Definitely, I--these are incredible healing lines. You're really a healer. Part of your work is that of a healer. And you really have just, like you--you know, you were born with this ability. Yeah.
GA: I have to do more, though.
TD: No. Whatever you do, do it from healing space. When you give your workshops, obviously, you're healing. You're also being healed while you do your workshops. Don't--you know what I mean?

GA: S-- [she begins to say sí but hesitates]
TD: You're healing them from writing blocks, your writer's blocks. You're really healing them by, like, the processes you do. They're really healing processes at the same time. And whatever you do, you know, whatever your daily mantra or mandala is, you know--your daily work--whatever you do, part of it is you're also healing [inaudible].
GA: Even though I'm not conscious of it?

Diaghilev instructs Anzaldúa on developing her consciousness around the healing aspects of her work; to make an affirmation in the morning before she gives a workshop or speech. Diaghilev validates other forms of healing, such as conversation and cooking. Diaghilev encourages Anzaldúa to engage intent to heal in the same way she would engage her knowledge before speaking publicly. Insists that her teaching work is healing work.
Diaghilev details how Anzaldúa should move energy through her chakras. There's a cat meowing in the background. Anzaldúa says this pratice will be helpful in her workshops. Diaghilev mentions she can do this work by herself or she can engage her audience to collectively build the energy in the space and for the event, as a collective raising of consciousness.

TD: Okay. So. Now-this is so--I'm really interest--[Anzaldúa laughs] In this lifetime also--you are really in this lifetime, you have really chosen to be your teacher. Your own teacher, you know? Because, although when you came into this life you could easily be influenced by people as a child or so.
GA: I've learned almost everything from books and from myself. And its only recently like with you that I've started learning from other people.
Diaghilev tells Anzaldúa she was probably a very obedient child. Anzaldúa says she would feign obedience, but would go on to do what she wanted. Diaghilev tells Anzaldúa this obedience influenced her to become independent and to be her own teacher.

Diaghilev says there is a lot of romance in her life, and that her life will be very eventful. Anzaldúa says she's "never met a boring day," although she sometimes wishes "the roller coaster would stop."

[long pause; rumbling traffic sounds in the background]
Diaghilev and Anzaldúa discuss a volatile relationship in Anzaldúa's life around the age of 25. Diaghilev shows Anzaldúa where the lines on her hand indicate this relationship, and compares to her own hand. There is a long pause, and Diaghilev tells Anzaldúa she has the strongest healing lines she's seen in a long time.
There is another long pause. Diaghilev circles back to the idea that Anzaldúa will settle on another continent around age 50. Anzaldúa remarks, "I'll have my villa in Italy!" and laughs. Diaghilev tells Anzaldúa she will live until her late 70s to early 80s.

GA: That's good. I don't want to die too young.
Diaghilev shows Anzaldúa on her own hand, where her life line breaks, indicating a near-death experience.
GA: I died--I've come close to death several times I don't know if it shows here.

Diaghilev says that life lines usually mend. Diaghilev continues showing Anzaldúa her hand.

Diaghilev says Anzaldúa has "real clear, real simple lines" indicating she's actively worked toward simplifying her life. There are still "complications" (many small lines) in Anzaldúa's hands, but overall Anzaldúa's hands are hyper-legible and offer a clear picture.

TD: Do you have any questions?
GA: What does this--My hands are very fleshy and I've looked at other people's hands and other people's hands are like flat. And mine are like very padded.
TD: That's your sense--that's your creativity. Padded fingertips are very creative fingertips. The more padded they are, the more sensitive, and the more creative you are. But at the same time you have the ability to be practical with your creativity.
GA: Oh yeah?

Diaghilev says that her fingertips are not cone shaped which would show impracticality. She can write, and will be published. There is unleashed passion in her. Diaghilev quickly looks over the mounds on Anzaldúa's hands. Diaghilev asks her sign; she responds she is a Libra/Virgo cusp, born on September 29. Diaghilev says there is quite a bit of Earth energy in her fleshy palms as well.

GA: What about fire? Somebody told me I had fire hands.
TD: Yeah, partially.
GA: Partial?
TD: mmhmm

Anzaldúa asks why her fingers are crooked. Diaghilev says they indicate Anzaldúa will have a strong public life, in front of large groups. They show strength, power, and extroversion. She is well-equipped to handle the public. Diaghilev says that crooked fingers also indicate great attention to detail. Anzaldúa laughs and says she's always thought she lacked attention to detail.

TD: I mean, I have a feeling you're really a stickler when you edit your work and things like this, you know?
GA: I go over every word.
TD: Yeah. Yeah.
GA: Every word.

Diaghilev says Anzaldúa is a very open person, but is also becoming more and more open. Anzaldúa says she was a very shy child and would often hide behind her mother. Diaghilev says Anzaldúa will get a lot of attention and be able to handle the public well.
[Car horns and traffic sounds in the background]

GA: I love being before crowds and I love being on television--I was on television--and I love being on radio.

TD: Yeah and you have a talent for it. You have chosen this talent for it. This is fabulous. This is really good. Yeah. That's fantastic.
GA: So I'm really gonna have a public life, huh?
TD: mmhmm
GA: I better have my sanctuary.

Diaghilev instructs Anzaldúa on how to protect and balance her energy when she is dealing with the public in order to not drain herself. Diaghilev encourages Anzaldúa to bring her spirit guides with her when she engages with the public.

TD: Do you have master guide?
GA: Well this far it's that woman.
TD: That woman. Yes, that--that's her.
GA: But also the hermit that I told you about.
TD: Yeah. Yeah.
GA: I think he's gonna come.

Diaghilev suggests having her guides with her whenever she speaks in public. Diaghilev tells Anzaldúa how she connects with her own master guide, a Mayan priestess, when speaking in front of audiences. Anzaldúa asks if Diaghilev's guide was an iteration of herself in a past life. She responds that her main spirit guide was her teacher in her past life. Diaghilev was also a "Sybil" type in Babylon.
Anzaldúa says she is writing a poem about Lady Babylon/Scarlet Woman. Anzaldúa asks if Diaghilev does her energy work in seclusion. Diaghilev says no, she does it before she speaks to crowds and with her classes, before several thousand people at a time. It has helped her maintain her power, because "I was more than just me." Diaghilev advises Anzaldúa to go into her past lives and be the strongest versions of her past selves.

GA: See, well, it's only since the last--since the time you taught us to go into our archives I've been doing it and so I wanna keep doing that.
TD: mmhmm yeah. And I know you've been a teacher before, you know. And so sometimes it's really hard. I have to take on that valence and speak from that space as a teacher. Oh! a lot of interesting information comes through that way. Or speak through your teacher, like the indian woman. That's sometimes how I speak. Aramayo [?]
GA: She's been coming through in Spanish lately [laughs]
TD: Far out! Tape record it. Record it. Be suprprised at your voice eventually, you know? Go in trance and record it whatever she wants to say, say it, you know? [pause] Okay!

[Tape stops]